An age-old question: ways to 60m.

[bardass]

That is very interesting.
Can you describe what “any old way” is for you and what your system is?

"not seriously"
system : FFESSM, FSGT, ANMP, CMAS

French diving Law :

 

[David Carron]

That is very interesting.
Can you describe what “any old way” is for you and what your system is?

Honestly, I think the specific training that @bardass is referring to is appallingly weak: 60m without any accelerated deco procedures or any of the notions of redundancy explicit in the (for example) PADI TEC 50.

I'd be willing to guess that the principle reason that there aren't more deep air accidents in France is that in practice there are a vanishingly small number of these deep air dives and not because it's possible to be adequately trained for them.

(slight disclaimer here) I know @bardass personally and, in my experience, he is deadly serious both as a diver and instructor.

 

[CG43]

An example to illustrate different views.

Running : This should stand for freediving .
The performance is mainly determined by the diver

Cycling : Here a technical aid is used but it still depends mainly on the rider.
The ability of the diver to cope with gas density, oxygen partial pressure and narcosis of oxygen and nitrogen sets the limits.

Driving a car: assuming driving skills, it is the car that determines the performance.
As long as the diver uses the equipment correctly and it works, the appropriate breathing gases will be supplied.

What is most important to you?
Being able to run 42 km in 2 1/2 hours ?
Being able to cycle 40 km in an hour ?
A fast car and the ability to drive it fast ?

Everyone has to find the answer for themselves and besides, one diving style does not exclude a different one at a different time. In contrast to professional diving, there are no objective criteria for what really counts for the individual diver.

For me there is a very touching memory in connection with “air deep” when I was in the canion (Dahab reed sea) with my wife in 1991. She had not done a deeper dive for 7 years and her wetsuit was much too tight so she only dived with tank and mask, fins and snorkel. At about 45m she started to roll while swimming. This is a symptom when a diver is narced. When the right leg goes down the body rolls counterclockwise due to imbalance and when the left leg goes down body rolls clockwise. She was still breathing quite well so I let her continue diving. But if she wanted to dive deeper when we came out of the canion in about 50m I would prevent that.
No , when she came out of the canion she wanted to dive up , paddled with her fins but she just stood on the spot . Her helplessness frightened me . How could I risk my wife's health so recklessly?
She is the best thing I have found in my life and I am so stupid. I took her hand and we ascendet slowly . For me these were moments in which I felt a very great love for her. Luckily she was breathing properly the whole time and in 30m she normalized. I could see that because now she started to freeze. My experience is that you don't usually freeze narced. This dive although the shallowest and shortest was the most beautiful of the whole vacation and it always touches my heart when I think about it.

 

[DiveLikeAMuppet]

Cigarettes clearly cause cancer after about 15-20 years of smoking. Yet you can still buy cigarettes - government approved, and smoking just few increases your chance of getting cancer just a little - so why not do it.

I wouldn’t base any diving practice on what CMAS historically allows. BSAC also historically allows people dive to 50 on a single and a pony on air. Statistically speaking, accidents rarely happen and people can survive a lot - loads of air divers who supposedly never get narked are just lucky. Same way people are lucky when they drive home from the pub, because “five & drive” and they drive just fine after few pints.

 

[rddvet]

I'd be willing to guess that the principle reason that there aren't more deep air accidents in France is that in practice there are a vanishingly small number of these deep air dives and not because it's possible to be adequately trained for them.

With the amount of dumb sh-t I’ve seen in the Lot specifically from local, French divers I’m shocked there aren’t more deaths in the area. The French must be born with horseshoes up their arses.
One thing my experience in the Lot has taught me it’s to stay way the hell away from French divers. It seems the sentiment extends to Mexico as well. A friend who is an instructor down there will change dive sites if he sees a flock of French divers at a cenote.

 

[lermontov]

I dont understand how people claiming they are technical divers can keep defending deep air- mental impairment is anathema to technical diving which is about complexity and risk mitigation

I know we all think we can handle stressful situations because were so awesome but when we are in a life threatening situation it is sobering to realise how narcosis is magnified by stress and how quickly our mental state can deteriorate ( and yes I speak from experience)

read the account of a cave diver (attached file)

Risks in diving are relatively easy to control why tip the scales against yourself

Why do I continue to train divers at 60m with air when I don't do it myself any more?
Because this type of diving is approved in France and elsewhere (in Egypt, for example, with a nitrox deco block) and I'd rather these divers be well trained (I'd like to think they are with me) than be trained any old way by others.

most of us have done it - dive to 60m on air, but why are you taking peolpe to 60m when by definition they are still in the learning phase. They havent got the muscle memory or experience to deal with a major issue with the impairment you wil get at 60m

youve dived ccr -would you dive to 60m on air with a ccr? if not why not ?

Timix is the best gas option for deep dives but is it not always available or accessible. You all are ridiculous with your berating of something you have no experience with.

why is trimix better?

your post #2 identifies the issues yet you have convinced yourself you can still think clearly -I call BS on that you only think you can think clearly because you are likely already impaired

 

[Boarderguy]

why is trimix better?

your post #2 identifies the issues yet you have convinced yourself you can still think clearly -I call BS on that you only think you can think clearly because you are likely already impaired

I've laid out the reasons it's better. I've also laid out the reasons it's not necessary or realistic in all circumstances. Have you been to 50m on air? Have you dove with me to 60m? You don't know how anyone other than yourself reacts to narcossis. I can think clearly and make appropriate decisions while affected by it. Clearly you're narc'd at 30m and that's OK. I'm glad you found the solution for sub 30m dives that works for you. I can't afford $200 dives every week, though I will gladly suck down tri if you're going to pay for it though. It really is better, but again not realistic in my universe.

 

[Blackcrusader]

Do I understand correctly that after TDI ANDP, there are two main ways to go deeper, down to 60 meters?

1. OC Trimix – Take a Trimix course (around 5 days), and then you're good to go. But each dive will cost you an extra ~$250 just for the helium.
2. CCR – Buy a CCR unit and complete MOD1, Helitrox, and Mixed Gas training (about 15 days total, spread out over time). After that, you're free to dive, and each dive costs around $50 for consumables.

Is that correct?

P.S.
I know about Extended range but I am not fill comfortable on air down to 50m....

You post seems to have gone off topic. I've been diving over 39 years. I do deep dives to 50m on air.
I don't have issues being able to maintain situational awareness on deep dives. Are you not comfortable as you suffer from narcosis or is it you just not comfortable with the thought of diving on air on deep dives?

I am not Trimix certified.

I've never wanted to go CCR as simply I do not do enough divinng or have dive buddies who do CCR. It's really a niche part of the diving community. For me Helium Trimix is not worth it.

How many dives would you be doing deeper than 40m 50m 60m?

 

[crofrog]

I've laid out the reasons it's better. I've also laid out the reasons it's not necessary or realistic in all circumstances. Have you been to 50m on air? Have you dove with me to 60m? You don't know how anyone other than yourself reacts to narcossis. I can think clearly and make appropriate decisions while affected by it. Clearly you're narc'd at 30m and that's OK. I'm glad you found the solution for sub 30m dives that works for you. I can't afford $200 dives every week, though I will gladly suck down tri if you're going to pay for it though. It really is better, but again not realistic in my universe.

How many 50m trimix dives do you have?

 

[eightytwenty]

Have you been to 50m on air?

Yes. I've done a good deal of deep air, before I knew any better. It's something I regret, and I am so incredibly thankful that nothing went wrong on any of those dives. Although it didn't feel like it in the moment, if anything had gone wrong it would have been a very bad time for myself and my buddy.

Have you dove with me to 60m?

No, and I wouldn't like to.

I can think clearly and make appropriate decisions while affected by it.

Sure!

I can't afford $200 dives every week

Then you don't need to dive to 60m every week... Chasing depth isn't the answer, especially since you've said before that you're pushing deeper just to push deeper. There is a remarkable amount to see shallow, and I bet you'll remember the dives better, too.