Almost out of air after descending against a strong current

[danvolker]

Let's look at the alternative.
If you had had a good captain, he would have asked if everyone was able to descend fast, with a hot drop....in other words, no air in BC off the platform, and swimming down as you hot the water, gently down---not screaming...but not screwing around like ducks on the surface either. Anyone with sinus issues and problems descending fast, gets to go in their own drop, afterwards--ideally with a DM or regular that will ensure they can find the wreck with a long approach drift.

The captain estimates how far up current you and your group need to be dropped, gives you your warning, and then calls DIVE, DIVE , DIVE.
You jump off and being immediate swimming down, and look at your buddy as soon as the bubbles clear....you join up --still swimming down, match downward pace, and still with relaxed heart rate, and no exertion at all, you both reach the bottom ( maybe 2 feet off the bottom)...You can do a gear check here--check for bubbles, whatever, but now you are largely out of the current, and waiting for the ocean to carry you to the wreck....you don't even need to swim, the ocean does the work..In the 15 or 20 foot vis ( you indicated it was poor like this), you keep an eye on the horizon down current, looking for a large dark shape with it's own horizon--the wreck. When you see it, you begin swimming to either the side you are coming to--at the bottom, or, you can head to near it, but plan on being right on it at the down current end, where the eddy effect will pull you up to it like a kayaker running to the backside of a big boulder in a river. Here you have no current, or even a current that pulls you toward the ship( opposite the main flow). In 4 and 5 mph currents, this is your method, and it lets you easily work along areas totally protected/out of the current, or, to choose WHEN you want to stick your head into high current and use handholds of the steel structure, to pull yourself into some other protected area inside the hold of the ship. You don't really do any significant swimming "into" the fill current--this would be foolish, even for someone with elite cardio and big freedive fins--or with a big scooter...not when you have 4mph or over currents. It is all finding ways NOT to work. Hiding out of the current, which is what Goliath Grouper do as well
When you are done, you and your buddy signal the DM you are heading up, and you just swim up gently--and from a 60 foot depth, you can shoot your SMB at 30 feet, and still be very relatively close to where the shipwreck is....easy to spot for the captain, who will need to track you...
This is where a good briefing, and similar dive plans for the groups help a great deal....if you can dive a group, and all in each group decide to surface at the same time, you only need one smb going up, and it is easy for the boat to do pickups for 1, 2 or 3 groups. The captain knows the vector that each group will be on for ascent, so being in the right place for the 2nd or 3rd group is easy.

Captains that would anchor on a high current wreck typically lack the skills and talent to be paid for taking you out. I would consider this gross negligence.

 

[nimoh]

Captains that would anchor on a high current wreck typically lack the skills and talent to be paid for taking you out. I would consider this gross negligence.

I agree that a drop would be a viable alternative, and possibly even preferable, but come on, gross negligence? seems a bit of a stretch.

 

[danvolker]

I agree that a drop would be a viable alternative, and possibly even preferable, but come on, gross negligence? seems a bit of a stretch.

Nimoh,
The thing is, I have seen the outcome so many times...of captains anchoring on a wreck in a high current, and where so many divers blow a huge amount of air on the way down....creating massive CO2 and fatigue, and potentially getting to the point of exhaustion that we might expect could cause tunnel vision and poor choices--even dangerous or catastrophic ones. The average diver was never trained to work at the edge or aerobic failure and to go anaerobic in their efforts underwater. The mental and skills portion of their performance is severely impacted by this. Even if they don't end up doing anything stupid in this state, their potential for DCS increases massively with the greater likelihood of muscles being severely constricted by over-exertion--and of poor off-gassing on ascent.

In practical terms, After you have seen this scenario a few dozen times, you pretty much know the Cluster F%$k that will ensue from a high current anchor dive. A captain knowing this, doing it anyway, is putting the money taken in from the divers-paid to take them to this wreck----over the importance of obvious safety. If he had the SKILL LEVEL required, he would do this in a series of drops --based on descent speeds, and he would be PREPARED with SMB;s or other means to track the divers --Or...he would abort this location. Good captains that care, don't do this high current anchoring. Poorly skilled captains do. Ones that don't know any better do.

I have done drifts in bad vis--less than 10 foot vis, to 100 and even 280 foot deep wrecks. The vis is a problem only on a bad drop ( bad technique from the captain) or with tiny wrecks....or for divers that are incapable of fast descents due to sinus issues. Of course, for this there is Mucinex D

Palm Beach is a place where you can see how easy drift drops are....and where the Captains do this so effortlessly you really have to wonder why this is not done all the time..by captains everywhere.

 

[xyrandomyx]

I'm not sure how fast a Dive X-tras Sierra can go, but it can go fast enough to make a regulator freeflow. The flow out of Ginnie Springs can make a regulator freeflow. I believe that this happened to the OP. The only other reasonable explanation was that the OP didn't check the tank pressure before diving, and was unaware that he had a partially empty tank to begin with. I think his description of a relaxed descent pulling down the anchor line is accurate -- he made the point of assuring us that he wasn't nervous or frantic. To go through the entire contents of ANY reasonable-sized tank just on descent, requires a consumption rate that is off the wall. In fact, if you assume an Al80 (fairly small tank) and a 6 minute descent (pretty slow) to 100 feet (fairly deep), you are talking a FOUR cubic feet per minute consumption to end up at 50 bar at the bottom of the anchor line. I have never seen anyone achieve that breathing -- I hope I never do!

According to this doc: http://www.silent-submersion.com/Product Comparisons/comparson N19 Sierra_V1.1.pdf, it can go at a maximum of 182 feet per minute, which is about 1.8 knots.

 

[Mike]

Let's look at the alternative.
If you had had a good captain, he would have asked if everyone was able to descend fast, with a hot drop....in other words, no air in BC off the platform, and swimming down as you hot the water, gently down---not screaming...but not screwing around like ducks on the surface either. Anyone with sinus issues and problems descending fast, gets to go in their own drop, afterwards--ideally with a DM or regular that will ensure they can find the wreck with a long approach drift.

The captain estimates how far up current you and your group need to be dropped, gives you your warning, and then calls DIVE, DIVE , DIVE.
You jump off and being immediate swimming down, and look at your buddy as soon as the bubbles clear....you join up --still swimming down, match downward pace, and still with relaxed heart rate, and no exertion at all, you both reach the bottom ( maybe 2 feet off the bottom)...You can do a gear check here--check for bubbles, whatever, but now you are largely out of the current, and waiting for the ocean to carry you to the wreck....you don't even need to swim, the ocean does the work..In the 15 or 20 foot vis ( you indicated it was poor like this), you keep an eye on the horizon down current, looking for a large dark shape with it's own horizon--the wreck. When you see it, you begin swimming to either the side you are coming to--at the bottom, or, you can head to near it, but plan on being right on it at the down current end, where the eddy effect will pull you up to it like a kayaker running to the backside of a big boulder in a river. Here you have no current, or even a current that pulls you toward the ship( opposite the main flow). In 4 and 5 mph currents, this is your method, and it lets you easily work along areas totally protected/out of the current, or, to choose WHEN you want to stick your head into high current and use handholds of the steel structure, to pull yourself into some other protected area inside the hold of the ship. You don't really do any significant swimming "into" the fill current--this would be foolish, even for someone with elite cardio and big freedive fins--or with a big scooter...not when you have 4mph or over currents. It is all finding ways NOT to work. Hiding out of the current, which is what Goliath Grouper do as well
When you are done, you and your buddy signal the DM you are heading up, and you just swim up gently--and from a 60 foot depth, you can shoot your SMB at 30 feet, and still be very relatively close to where the shipwreck is....easy to spot for the captain, who will need to track you...
This is where a good briefing, and similar dive plans for the groups help a great deal....if you can dive a group, and all in each group decide to surface at the same time, you only need one smb going up, and it is easy for the boat to do pickups for 1, 2 or 3 groups. The captain knows the vector that each group will be on for ascent, so being in the right place for the 2nd or 3rd group is easy.

Captains that would anchor on a high current wreck typically lack the skills and talent to be paid for taking you out. I would consider this gross negligence.

LOL

That sure sounds preferable to simply following an anchor or buoy line down to a wreck. (not)

Damn negligent captains! Also must be nice for the dive operators who's clients are all Navy SEALs instead of recreational divers of varying abilities, must make a dive masters job real easy working there.

 

[nimoh]

Nimoh,
The thing is, I have seen the outcome so many times...of captains anchoring on a wreck in a high current, and where so many divers blow a huge amount of air on the way down....creating massive CO2 and fatigue, and potentially getting to the point of exhaustion that we might expect could cause tunnel vision and poor choices--even dangerous or catastrophic ones. The average diver was never trained to work at the edge or aerobic failure and to go anaerobic in their efforts underwater. The mental and skills portion of their performance is severely impacted by this. Even if they don't end up doing anything stupid in this state, their potential for DCS increases massively with the greater likelihood of muscles being severely constricted by over-exertion--and of poor off-gassing on ascent.

In practical terms, After you have seen this scenario a few dozen times, you pretty much know the Cluster F%$k that will ensue from a high current anchor dive. A captain knowing this, doing it anyway, is putting the money taken in from the divers-paid to take them to this wreck----over the importance of obvious safety. If he had the SKILL LEVEL required, he would do this in a series of drops --based on descent speeds, and he would be PREPARED with SMB;s or other means to track the divers --Or...he would abort this location. Good captains that care, don't do this high current anchoring. Poorly skilled captains do. Ones that don't know any better do.

I have done drifts in bad vis--less than 10 foot vis, to 100 and even 280 foot deep wrecks. The vis is a problem only on a bad drop ( bad technique from the captain) or with tiny wrecks....or for divers that are incapable of fast descents due to sinus issues. Of course, for this there is Mucinex D

Palm Beach is a place where you can see how easy drift drops are....and where the Captains do this so effortlessly you really have to wonder why this is not done all the time..by captains everywhere.

I see your point, and agree that in very high currents, this practice could be seen as negligent, although I am not a captain, and have never done a high current anchor dive, so my opinion is not all that relevant.

From the OP, it didn't seem that this dive was to that extreme though, and the free flow seems like the most plausible explanation, especially since the other divers didn't blow through their gas.

 

[PsyWulf]

Meh a bit of sand or grit in the reg and it can freeflow in open air,I can imagine a good current making it happen
My last descent down a line in current like that the bubbles from the divers below me were all over the place,unless I was looking directly at the reg I wouldn't have picked up a freeflow ahead of me,and behind? I'm clinging for dear life man,I can't look back too

 

[Zippsy]

Captains that would anchor on a high current wreck typically lack the skills and talent to be paid for taking you out. I would consider this gross negligence.

With all due respect, you haven't a clue what you are talking about. A good captain may do that from a dinghy with all navy seals on board but a good recreational dive boat captain will put every recreational diver on a wreck like this in a safe manner both up and down the mooring line. I have done lots of live drops in the past with some legendary skippers and have often missed the wreck. Heck, I did one dive at Mike's Point in Raja Ampat and my buddy and I were the only group out of 8 teams (and the local guide) to find the island! A mooring line descent /ascent line was the safest and best alternative for this dive, considering all the circumstances. If anything would have changed that assessment, it would have been the jellyfish, rather than the current.

BTW, I saw the OP descend as I passed him while ascending. I stopped to signal him about something else and did not notice a free flow, which I'm sure I would have. That was only for a second or two during his descent though. Regarding the guide in question, I happen to think he's outstanding. If he had been behind, he would have seen the assumed free flow but he also could have missed something in front. There are pros and cons for each placement for a guide.

 

[danvolker]

With all due respect, you haven't a clue what you are talking about. A good captain may do that from a dinghy with all navy seals on board but a good recreational dive boat captain will put every recreational diver on a wreck like this in a safe manner both up and down the mooring line. I have done lots of live drops in the past with some legendary skippers and have often missed the wreck. Heck, I did one dive at Mike's Point in Raja Ampat and my buddy and I were the only group out of 8 teams (and the local guide) to find the island! A mooring line descent /ascent line was the safest and best alternative for this dive, considering all the circumstances. If anything would have changed that assessment, it would have been the jellyfish, rather than the current.

BTW, I saw the OP descend as I passed him while ascending. I stopped to signal him about something else and did not notice a free flow, which I'm sure I would have. That was only for a second or two during his descent though. Regarding the guide in question, I happen to think he's outstanding. If he had been behind, he would have seen the assumed free flow but he also could have missed something in front. There are pros and cons for each placement for a guide.

Zipsy, apparently where you dive they don't use their dive boats like we do in South Florida....here, a boat like a 46 foot Newton ( custom built boats, Newton Boats, Inc. 46' Dive Special ) will take around 20 divers to a site, and then do what you are suggesting a dinghy is needed for....The dinghy would be a poor way to do a good drop I would think, as it would be missing the high accuracy GPS and fathometers the Dive boat would use to know exactly where the wreck is, how fast the current is moving, and how the current is relating to the wreck and the glide path of descending divers....the dinghy is just going to have visual marks....and the marks can work for some sites, but this has far less precision in most cases.

Even our Liveaboards do drops...like Jim Abernethy's boat Shearwater..... So what I am clueless about is the WHY the boat you are talking about, choose to drop people with a dinghy, or do anchor dives in big currents.....Maybe you just don't get real currents, so they try to use the ease of anchoring ( easy for the captain, hard for the divers when compared to the better alternative of drifting in with a current).

I have dived all over the Caribean, along with Florida, and as far as Fiji. The boats in Fiji liked anchoring, but the currents they thought were currents, in south Florida would pass for a still water/no current day

 

[Mike]

Zipsy, apparently where you dive they don't use their dive boats like we do in South Florida....here, a boat like a 46 foot Newton ( custom built boats, Newton Boats, Inc. 46' Dive Special ) will take around 20 divers to a site, and then do what you are suggesting a dinghy is needed for....The dinghy would be a poor way to do a good drop I would think, as it would be missing the high accuracy GPS and fathometers the Dive boat would use to know exactly where the wreck is, how fast the current is moving, and how the current is relating to the wreck and the glide path of descending divers....the dinghy is just going to have visual marks....and the marks can work for some sites, but this has far less precision in most cases.

Even our Liveaboards do drops...like Jim Abernethy's boat Shearwater..... So what I am clueless about is the WHY the boat you are talking about, choose to drop people with a dinghy, or do anchor dives in big currents.....Maybe you just don't get real currents, so they try to use the ease of anchoring ( easy for the captain, hard for the divers when compared to the better alternative of drifting in with a current).

I have dived all over the Caribean, along with Florida, and as far as Fiji. The boats in Fiji liked anchoring, but the currents they thought were currents, in south Florida would pass for a still water/no current day

Dan, I think where you are missing the point here is that you're leaving out one major difference between the dives you are comparing in Florida and the OP's dive, which is visibility.

the vis wasn't great, probably a little over 5 meters. I chatted with the guide who set the hook, and he said he basically couldn't see the wreck until he was landing on it.

If you want to still stick to saying drops and live boating in 15 ft of visibility is the way to do it, so be it, but I think you missed that part of his description before you made your reply. It's one thing to drop in up current and find a wreck with 50,60,70,80 ft of visibility and quite another to do it in 15 ft of visibility.