After dive oxygen: shouldn’t the diver decide?

[mrfixitchapman]

I can see it now...."Spare O2"

"You'll die if you don't have one". Technically, I'm going to die anyway. I just want to put it off for a long time.

DC

 

[drrich2]

...so as I said previously, a first responder should do what he feels is right and forget about the lawyers.

In the United States of America, you never forget about the lawyers.

Richard.

 

[Akimbo]

Instead of after-dive snacks, how about an on-board Oxygen Bar?


Oxygen bar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Seems safe enough for recreational imbibers. Makes me wonder.

DC

I can see it now...."Spare O2"

Yeah, and in flavors!

 

[lowviz]

OK, but there has to be a flavor limit. An unconscionable excess would expose the manufacturer to legal liability.

 

[beanojones]

I assume you're the perfect diver who hasn't had one single little "oops" in your diving career? Since you can draw such inferences from a non-incident?

And what about Scubaboard makes people act like they have a big chip on their shoulder and not being able to discuss the topic, but rather engage in snark and poorly camouflaged sniping?

It was hardly snark. It was directly stated, and not even slightly poorly camouflaged, because I was not intending to be obtuse. I am sorry you took offense, but really, you only did so because you took it to be about you personally. If you prefer, we can say it was a general case, and not your specific case.

In some general cases, divers need to stop being selfish and realize that when we in the industry say "No" it is not because we ever want to act like parents, but, rather, because some divers are acting like children. We are trying to protect our livelihood and careers. We do know better than you. Balancing one diver losing one dive against that, a dive they lost through their own mistake.....

If enough people die or get disabled, the sport disappears, because as much as the self absorbed diver thinks "It's my life", it's not. Surviving family members will sue everyone they can, from the boat owner to the gear manufacturer. Everyone is completely enmeshed in a social network that has benefits AND RESPONSIBILITIES. And that is completely independent of whether a specific location has lawyers or not. In places where tort law is not used to ensure safety, governments just enforce safety by fiat. The phrase "nanny state" is often used to refer to the UK where an activist government assumes the role that tort law does in the US.

In diving, there are specific responsiblities that I have as an instructor, and one has as a diver. And a big one is not to rapidly ascend from any dive.
Unintentional rapid ascent is the thing as an instructor I spend most of time trying to prevent, from classroom to fun dives. It's hardly an "oops".
Avoiding rapid ascent in general is so basic to safety that we have divers sign a pledge that they will never do it before we even allow them to start open water training. It's right there in the student folder even before the liability release. (although in the latest version of the folder one does not have to sign it.)

Slowly
Ascend
From
Every

Dive

(And again, so what, losing one dive day is so important that we can forget violations of basic safety standards? There are computers that lock you out if you rapidly ascend because the decompression modeling algorithm says the risk is too high to continue diving.)

 

[drrich2]

Everyone is completely enmeshed in a social network that has benefits AND RESPONSIBILITIES.

Which speaks to a theme that's come up in other threads; that of the exercise of individual liberty vs. the curtailment of it by Big Brother (whether government directly, lawyer-driven liability issues indirectly, etc...) due to Socialist concerns (e.g.: we're all enmeshed in a social network as you put it). Where to draw the line between these competing interests is not always clear cut.

People referring to the nanny state (as I often do) with contempt are apt to believe that some measure of 'harm' (e.g.: higher accident & death rates) to society is an acceptable price to pay to provide for a greater exercise of individual liberty. And that the impact of tort law and more controlling governments is contrary to that.

And it's a legitimate concern.

Richard.

 

[beanojones]

That's fine, don't enmesh yourself in a society.

Of course scuba diving is probably impossible without society. Certainly being a tourist on a boat is.

And without a doubt medical grade O2 is.

 

[The Chairman]

It was hardly snark.

I agree with his assessment of it. It's was a def "divier than thou" kind of post. Things happen all the time. Those who assume they know how/why or that it could never happen to them display an arrogance based on their apparent naivety. Case in point, I was doing a cave dive with Diveaholic a year or two ago. I hadn't used my sidemount for some time, and there was a short swim to the cave. I was a bit ahead of him and wanted to make sure everything worked in the shallows before I got into the overhead. I pulled each dump, listening for air escaping when I find myself plummeting into the smooze. I could still hear bubbling and it got frantic when I added air to my BC. I hit, and hit hard with billows of silt all around me. It was embarrassing. I was mortified. It was a double bladder BCD, so I knew I could work this out, and set about to figure which of the dumps was stuck. I found the problem and found a way to resolve it. I gingerly added air and slowly emerged from the smooze. About this time, diveaholic caught up with me, flashed me an 'OK' and I sheepishly gave one back, fully expecting him to drag me to the surface for an explanation. He continued the dive without that and the dive into twin cave went without further incident. We both had a great time. On the surface, I expressed my surprise that we didn't surface, as I know that's what I would have done. He pointed out that there were a couple of maneuvers going into the cave that I would have to negotiate and he let those determine if we would continue the dive. Point is, he didn't assume the worst as you just did. If you assume the best or the worst, you're probably wrong. The truth is somewhere in the middle. Knee jerk reactions are seldom appropriate and are often detrimental in those situations. Ask, analyze, think and then act. This ready, fire, aim crap based on faulty absolutes is not for me.

That's what I see as a fairly common attitude when it comes to providing Oxygen too. People get their exercise jumping to conclusions and assuming the worst. It's a zero tolerance oxygen policy and that causes problems, physically, mentally and emotionally. Depending on the trip, I might endure it, but you can be sure I don't like it. If my using oxygen makes you worry about your supply in case of a possible emergency, then it's obvious to me that your preparations are inadequate. You would precipitate an emergency rather than head one off and you don't have nearly enough oxygen if the caca really does hit the fan. Forget about injuries for a moment. If you take the FUN out of diving by adding in all sorts of superfluous rules based on your phobia du jour, then you're going to ruin our sport. In the words of Sgt Hulka: Lighten up Francis! Real safety is preventing an injury. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. If someone wants oxygen to hedge their bets avoid the emergency by giving it to him. You're not exposing yourself to additional legal liability as much as you are protecting yourself by acting in a timely manner.

 

[Storker]

It was hardly snark. It was directly stated, and not even slightly poorly camouflaged, because I was not intending to be obtuse. I am sorry you took offense, but really, you only did so because you took it to be about you personally. If you prefer, we can say it was a general case, and not your specific case.

Yeah. Sure.

Unintentional rapid ascent is the thing as an instructor I spend most of time trying to prevent, from classroom to fun dives. It's hardly an "oops".

If you're still referring to the non-incident I mentioned, re-read my post. This time for comprehension. Nowhere was the word "rapid" used. Nowhere. On the contrary, I said "not the Polaris missile impersionation". It was by definition uncontrolled, since I'd lost my fins when my boots slipped off and weren't able to control it by swimming downwards.

Some more info for the self-titled expert: I lost control because I was somewhat underweighted in a new DS with new undergarments and became positively buoyant when I'd breathed down my tank to about half full. When I tried to fin down to pick up a rock for makeshift weight, the boots of my new, unfamiliar DS slipped off, and my fin straps slipped off my heels. I vented the suit as fully as possibly, exhaled completely, but was just that much positive that I couldn't stop the ascent. Since the ascent was, by definition, uncontrolled and my mates weren't close enough to properly assess the incident, I was offered O2. Since I knew from my slow, but certain elevator ride that my ascent speed was well below dangerous, and I had only missed a safety stop (after about half an hour at ~20m), I saw no reason to breathe O2. It was an "oops". Pretty effing embarrassing, but nothing to get anyone's knickers in a twist for.

But I guess your armchair quarterbacking is more reliable than the assessment from a diver who has never needed a DM to help him to dive after OW certification and who actually was there, in the front row...




--
Sent from my Android phone
Typos are a feature, not a bug

 

[Bob DBF]

That's fine, don't enmesh yourself in a society.

Of course scuba diving is probably impossible without society. Certainly being a tourist on a boat is.

And without a doubt medical grade O2 is.

It is a matter of what kind of society in which you are enmeshed. Some enjoy being subjects and being ruled, but others believe in individual sovereignty as messy as that may turn out at times. I have seen no shortage of dive boats or medical O2 around here. You can also dive without certification if you wish, the problem might be with your insurance company, but not with society.

I guess this might be more pub material.
[/HIJACK]



Bob
---------------------------------
I think that advocating unsafe and dangerous practices is both stupid and foolish. That is why I don't tell people to do what I do. Dsix36