Additional DM liability while on Vacation??

[Oldbear]

Geoff - I think some people use their AOW card rather than DM card but I really don't worry about it. If you are with an operator all the divers have to sign a waiver and if something happens, the families may go after the operator but other divers do not necessarily know who is a DM and who is not. If you are organizing a trip, I would suggest you get a waiver for the participants to sign as well.

When I was a new DM, I heard people talking about the added liability but I think that is when there is not a certified operator about. If you are going with a bunch of friends to a local dive site, there may be added liability.

I was off the job on vacation a couple weeks ago in the Caribbean and saw things going on that made my hair curl but did not think it was my responsibility to tell an operator how to run his business and the diving that was going on.

One woman went into gage mode on her comp from busting safety stops after going into DECO at least twice. She used other computers when hers locked up. Later in the she came up on a second dive away from the boat and was unable to make a safety stop at all.

Another couple (from a cruise ship) were diving without computers and we dove a deep wreck followed by a deep reef dive and I am sure both went into DECO because they were down deeper and longer than me on both dives and I went into DECO and had to do a longer stop to clear. When we were back on board, I causally mentioned that I thought they both went into DECO on the dive and the male said, "What's that?" They did not even know what decopmpression diving is. I deceided there that I was not going to say anything to anyone else about what I was seeing.
That said, not everyone follows all the safety standards and the best you can do is make sure you know your limits and dive safe. Interferring with the operator's livelihood and reputation is not a good but as a trained dive professional, we will all encounter less that perfect diving operations.

How has other professionals handled similar situations?

How would other professionals handled simular situations... Wow what a great question that most people might avoid from a personal fear of being judged themselves. Not that people would do that on an open forum

I too am not a dive professional yet nor do I have the diving experience that a lot of the contributors have, but am working towards that goal myself. I will still offer my two cents worth for what it is worth.:spit:

I read three action points in your post and would like to comment on them individually.

1. You witnessed unsafe acts by divers who had limited knowledge of what they were doing. So your choices were either to assist them or not too...and that is a personal choice only you can make at any given point. Many people might like to think that in the same given situation they would have stop the couple so they could DECOM and I am sure there are those that would never interfere for its the DM and Operator's responsibility. Most like for most there is some unwritten threshold that someone has to cross before we engage. Like I state I am not yet a professional diver yet, but I am a person who has been in many life threatening environment where small incidents can become life threatening and what I use to tell my soldiers is "If you see something wrong correct it, if you see someone doing something incorrect, let them know." Now this can be done in such a manner that it does not embarrass them, yet they learn. Of course there is always be that person who knows everything and might take offense...let them accept their own fate. But the person who accepts your advice, might learn & live and not become that tourist that killed them self in Coz. Again this is just my opinion.
2. It sounds like the tour’s Dive Masters were not doing their job or perhaps these vacation dives were unsupervised. The there were DMs on your dives, then shame on them, they were not doing their job. So again you have a personal choice to make; do you say something to the DMs or the Operators or do you let it go. Again it is what you are comfortable with. I have dove with two particular DMs that I felt should have been reprimanded for their actions. One for throwing a hissy-fit when I had an equipment failure at the beginning of a dive and taking a swing at me and the other for leaving his group of divers when he was running low on air after a deep dive and had divers spread out over a mile from the boat. In the case of the first DM I spoke to the Operator. I knew she really cared and made sure the rest of my trip I was treated well as I am sure that she does with all of her guests. The other one…well I wrote it up in my review of the AOW course and posted it on Trip Adviser. I really don’t think that that operator would care about our complaints. Who knows, but I did feel I should let as many others know about this operation as possible.
3. The third issue I read into your statement was you were concerned with the reputation of the Operator. I too am very concerned with the livelihood of an Operator. Without Operators there would be a lot of divers not diving… Here is your third personal choice and that is your evaluation of that operation and the seriousness and circumstances of the unsafe action. Was this situation attributed to a person having a bad day or was this reckless abandonment of safety protocols. I mentioned how I respected one operator whose DM might have had an off day and acted atypical for the standards of that operation. I definitely said something to her. Then there is the other Operator who I felt had so little regard to their clientele’s safety I had no problem telling them and the world what I thought of them. What I never will know was there a diver who read my critique and chose not to dive with them, thus they never had that fatal mishap…I would like to think so but will never know. One thing is for sure, by not acting, the chances of the same situation occurring again are a lot more plausible.

I wish there was some mathematical formula when to engage and when not to, but it all comes down to your personal comfort level and evaluation of events. Remember complacency can kill. And when you do engage, I have found that when treating people with dignity and respect they are more resecptive...if they ever will be


Perhaps other will chime in as well...:meeting:

 

[Mantaman]

Thanks for your thoughts

 

[hypertech]

PADI pro check and the rec cert check are completely separate. If you look me up, you'll see I'm a rescue diver and my specialties. No indication I'm a DM unless you run a second check on the pro check system. I suspect most places that look you up will just do the first and won't know you are a DM.

 

[Mantaman]

I think BoulderJohn is correct in what is expected of you in that capacity in the U.S. Other countries are very different and its kind of impossible to give general world guidance.

Before taking a EAN course in St Martin recently, the operator sent me an email and asked about my dive level. I did not respond for several days and when I did, the operator told me she had already found out from PADI online, so I am pretty sure keeping the DM card in your wallet in lieu of the AOW card will not completely hide your true level.

Also like John, I had found that letting the operator know my level gets me perks along the way. Never been given free diving but I have been assigned to the better boat. Several years ago I was diving in Key Largo and the operator did not enter the water. The briefings was something like "The reef runs along that direction. Swim out to half a tank and come back to the boat." (They even had a tip can on board!!!)

One of the guys on the boat with me was certified 20 years earlier and had all his equipment stolen so never dove since. We jumped in and I saw he was going to get into trouble quickly so I pulled him with me and kept him safe, showed him what I saw and we got back to the boat safely. Was a much better alternative than what probably would have happened. The diver was extremely thankful as well.

One a recent trip, one diver was lost and the DM signaled for everyone else to follow me so he could surface and find the lost diver. I took over leading the dive including checking pressures of other divers so we could finish the dive rather than surface with the DM. The scuba community are mostly great folks and lending a hand has never been an issue for me.

 

[OMG7778]

You will dime yourself out as a dive pro the second you hit the water, whether or not you show your credentials. I have seen it many times when I was instructing in the caribbean. The guys that ran their mouth I was right next to once we were in the water knowing ahead of time that was probably going to be my problem child. The guys that were stoic or just generally quiet and upbeat, very competent in the water and no worries. Most of the time we would get back on board and over dinner it would come out that they instructed here or there. That said liability is a tricky issue that can bite you when you are not looking. Liability is the whole reason I hung up the instructor cards. We can all say you would or would not be liable for this that or the other but lets look for a secont at aviation case law for the arguement of liability. Three friends were flying in a cessna, the pilot flying was an instrument rated private pilot. The passenger in the front not rated at all. The guy in the back was an Airline pilot rated in turbojet aircraft with an instructors rating. He fell asleep on the trip home in the back seat. The pilot in the front got disoriented and pranked it into a field..... Any guesses if they pinned the guy in the back seat with liability? You bet, stripped all his ratings, and then the passenger sued him even though he was not at the controls and had not flown little aircraft in quite a while. Hiding in the wings is not always absolution. I am not up to date with current scuba law but would be very interested in US Liability cases. Internationally...... Whole different ball game, risk and liability is different and usually falls on the person committing the act. Just my two cents.

 

[flots am]

> Whole different ball game, risk and liability is different and usually falls on the person committing the act. Just my two cents

Pilot's licenses may be different.

AFAIK, there has never been a vacationing dive professional that was sued for something he didn't do, while on vacation.

In any case, it will take any competent attorney about an hour to find out the certifications of everybody on the dive boat, so keeping certifications secret isn't much of a defense.

flots.

 

[RickyF]

I am a rescue certified diver and took all the DM classes. The only part I have not done is the endurance part. I decided not to complete the course for several reasons. One being that I am 58 years old, have no intent on doing it professionally and started it because I love the theory behind diving. With that said, I believe that all of us have a responsibility to look out and assist each other as long as it doesn't put our own lives at risk. I have witnessed several divers on trips that have done very stupid things and i have brought it to their attention in a non-threatening way as just my observation. A couple of them appreciated what I had to say and others just blew it off. I did what I believed was the right thing to do and that is all I am responsible for. I believe that I am responsible to attempt to save anyones life if doing so will not endanger my own. I can't control any legal ramifications that may result, but here in the states there is a "good samaritan" law that does apply.

 

[Hostage]

I think the cases where people sue when someone qualified was not on duty is rare and/or we don't have all the information. It gets our goat when we hear stories like that, but we normally don't hear the whole story and there are many more situations that someone doesn't get sued.

 

[MOHON]

Hi,
Thanks For Your Nice Article.I Like It.

 

[nimoh]

great discussion.

I am hoping to complete my PADI DM training this weekend, and although it is easy for me to set lofty goals since I am not jaded by experience, I plan to be the type of divemaster that is willing to help. I am pretty sure I would rather live with losing my life savings, than live with someone's death that I may have been able to prevent.

Furthermore, I care about the livelihood of dive operators, but not to the point where I would keep my mouth shut when I witness unsafe practices. The diving world needs quality operators, not just operators.

On a recent dive in Mexico, one of my friends did a discover scuba for the first time, and I went along on the dive. I prevented my friend from shooting up to the surface a few times while the instructor was about 20 feet away taking pictures of turtles. Perhaps the instructor would have acted differently without me there and it would have been a safe dive, but the fact of the matter is, I am not a pro (yet) and I am not qualified to do his job. I told the instructor after the dive that I didn't like his conduct, but he blew it off. After we got back, I voiced my opinion to the owner of the operation and told him that I would not recommend his operation for people doing discover scuba but stop short of reporting this to PADI and they were apologetic and said they would investigate it. On a different dive, I had a great divemaster, so I am not ready to condemn the operation (which is why they remain nameless in this post).

I don't regret any of my actions, I was able to prevent a possible problem with my friend, and my follow-up may prevent a possible problem with some other discover scuba student.