Kevin Carlisle
Contributor
I agree. I have been the ass who refused to take someone in a cave that wasn't qualified. At the same time we are not responsible for those who do everythinng they can to sneak into these systems.
Accident at Vortex Springs 8-20-10
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I agree. I have been the ass who refused to take someone in a cave that wasn't qualified. At the same time we are not responsible for those who do everythinng they can to sneak into these systems.
I know everyone loves the "it's a free country, we can't sto them" argument. In general, we have many freedoms extended to us in the United States, but they are generally only extended until we begin to infringe on other's freedoms. For example, I am free to speak, but if I go into a courtroom and exercise my right to free speech while the Judge is speaking, I will be rightly thrown out for interrupting the process. I infringed on the free speech rights of the Judge, and my right to free speech in that location was temporarily revoked.
In the same way, we are allowed to drive with licenses. However, if in our driving, we strike another vehicle, then we have infringed on their right to drive, and have destroyed their property, and we are fined or lose our license.
Once you infringe on other's rights, you often stand to be punished or lose your own rights. In this case, open water divers in caves are on the borderline of infringing on other's rights. Recovery divers have lost their right to freedom as they must submit to their pledge and spend their time recovering the body. They are at risk of losing their right to life in the pursuit of this person's remains. All of us stand to lose our rights to cave dive as a result of this mans actions.
Batons? Cave police? No. I have already suggested what we should do. Stop supporting untrained divers. Fill station operators should start checking certifications and listening to customers. People talk. It's not often very hard to know when an untrained diver is diving in caves. Case in point, a fill station operator in North Florida was telling me about two Intro certified divers who are mentoring/training their OW friend how to cave dive. He still fills their tanks, even though he knows what they are doing. I think that shop should stop filling those persons' tanks and let them find another fill station. Lots of people knew about my two friends, or atleast suspected, what they were doing, and only some of us tried to stop them. I didn't try hard enough, partly because I didn't know the full story. I could have dug around to get more info, but I didn't.
I was trying to explain to a user who PM'd me some good ways to stop this. What it comes down to is, perceived cost. These open water divers apparently perceive the cost of cave training to be higher than the cost of diving without training. Education, via signs, or via open water classes, might increase the perceived cost to these people. If they knew that they would be shunned by the cave community, that might also increase the perceived cost. Peer pressure is very powerful.
Some fully trained divers do not belong in caves. There are cave instructors with a reputation for passing people who fail to meet the standards of other instructors. I don't know if you know much about cave country politics, but there are instructors that have a smellier reputation than horse poop. Word gets around, and I'd like to think it reduces the number of students those poor instructors see.
Curriculum is just the books, so you are right. When the curriculum allows for an instructor to be done training in just three days, though, I feel that allows for more instructors to make the decision to shorten training. If curriculums required a minimum of double the current number of dives, over a 6 day period, then I feel that gives more time for the good instructor to do a good job. There are some instructors who don't even have class time, all learning is done online. Those instructors never even have a chance to play videos showing the dangers of caves.
No matter what, someone will die in caves. But, I feel that giving up and accepting that fact is not a good option. We should do everything we can to create a climate in the dive industry and world that minimizes the number of divers who die in caves. We've made progress since the 70's, but we need to do more, and as you all point out, it's getting harder to do things. Rule of diminishing marginal returns.
But 4 people in less than 3 years? I think more uncertified divers have died inc aves recently than trained divers, a reversal of the last decade's trends. Perhaps someone who has perused the statistics more recently than I can weigh in on whether I am correct? I think it's close to equal (trained vs. untrained deaths) and I think for several years, trained deaths were outnumbering untrained.
In the same way, we are allowed to drive with licenses. However, if in our driving, we strike another vehicle, then we have infringed on their right to drive, and have destroyed their property, and we are fined or lose our license.
Once you infringe on other's rights, you often stand to be punished or lose your own rights. In this case, open water divers in caves are on the borderline of infringing on other's rights. Recovery divers have lost their right to freedom as they must submit to their pledge and spend their time recovering the body. They are at risk of losing their right to life in the pursuit of this person's remains. All of us stand to lose our rights to cave dive as a result of this mans actions.
Batons? Cave police? No. I have already suggested what we should do. Stop supporting untrained divers. Fill station operators should start checking certifications and listening to customers. People talk. It's not often very hard to know when an untrained diver is diving in caves. Case in point, a fill station operator in North Florida was telling me about two Intro certified divers who are mentoring/training their OW friend how to cave dive. He still fills their tanks, even though he knows what they are doing. I think that shop should stop filling those persons' tanks and let them find another fill station. Lots of people knew about my two friends, or atleast suspected, what they were doing, and only some of us tried to stop them. I didn't try hard enough, partly because I didn't know the full story. I could have dug around to get more info, but I didn't.
I was trying to explain to a user who PM'd me some good ways to stop this. What it comes down to is, perceived cost. These open water divers apparently perceive the cost of cave training to be higher than the cost of diving without training. Education, via signs, or via open water classes, might increase the perceived cost to these people. If they knew that they would be shunned by the cave community, that might also increase the perceived cost. Peer pressure is very powerful.
Some fully trained divers do not belong in caves. There are cave instructors with a reputation for passing people who fail to meet the standards of other instructors. I don't know if you know much about cave country politics, but there are instructors that have a smellier reputation than horse poop. Word gets around, and I'd like to think it reduces the number of students those poor instructors see.
Curriculum is just the books, so you are right. When the curriculum allows for an instructor to be done training in just three days, though, I feel that allows for more instructors to make the decision to shorten training. If curriculums required a minimum of double the current number of dives, over a 6 day period, then I feel that gives more time for the good instructor to do a good job. There are some instructors who don't even have class time, all learning is done online. Those instructors never even have a chance to play videos showing the dangers of caves.
No matter what, someone will die in caves. But, I feel that giving up and accepting that fact is not a good option. We should do everything we can to create a climate in the dive industry and world that minimizes the number of divers who die in caves. We've made progress since the 70's, but we need to do more, and as you all point out, it's getting harder to do things. Rule of diminishing marginal returns.
But 4 people in less than 3 years? I think more uncertified divers have died inc aves recently than trained divers, a reversal of the last decade's trends. Perhaps someone who has perused the statistics more recently than I can weigh in on whether I am correct? I think it's close to equal (trained vs. untrained deaths) and I think for several years, trained deaths were outnumbering untrained.
sabbath999
Contributor
Mpetryk,
Was your post meant to be sarcastic? I do not endorse the destruction of open water diver's property, nor do I endorse assault or battery.
If I saw an obviously open water diver in a cave, I would attempt to converse with them underwater and turn them around, perhaps via wetnotes, warning them that they are in a cave and need to turn around. If that fails, I might attempt to lure them out by pretending I wanted to show them something very interesting, in the direction of the exit, to see if they would follow me out.
Often though, it's more likely that you run into them on the surface. I have called security at sites to come to tell open water divers that they are not allowed to dive there, and I have confronted divers about their dive, and reminded them about the rules. I have never been rude, destroyed property, assaulted or battered a diver. I have influenced some divers and gotten them to stop. I have had some divers get very belligerent and have seen several escorted off the property by rangers/security/etc of the property management.
As another user posted, while a cave diving class would likely have prevented this, a better open water class might have as well.
Was your post meant to be sarcastic? I do not endorse the destruction of open water diver's property, nor do I endorse assault or battery.
If I saw an obviously open water diver in a cave, I would attempt to converse with them underwater and turn them around, perhaps via wetnotes, warning them that they are in a cave and need to turn around. If that fails, I might attempt to lure them out by pretending I wanted to show them something very interesting, in the direction of the exit, to see if they would follow me out.
Often though, it's more likely that you run into them on the surface. I have called security at sites to come to tell open water divers that they are not allowed to dive there, and I have confronted divers about their dive, and reminded them about the rules. I have never been rude, destroyed property, assaulted or battered a diver. I have influenced some divers and gotten them to stop. I have had some divers get very belligerent and have seen several escorted off the property by rangers/security/etc of the property management.
As another user posted, while a cave diving class would likely have prevented this, a better open water class might have as well.
regena
Guest
We know the family well and can only pray he has left the site. But Ben wouldn't worry his family like that. They are wonderful people and are the most loving people you would hope to meet. Our prayers and heartfelt concern and love go to you. Gena & Mike
Hetland
Contributor
You can't know a parson's training or experience by looking at them (I grant that you can guess what it is, but it's still just a guess). I'm sorry, but someone putting their hands on me underwater, and especially fouling my gear will have a fight on their hands.
That's not being an ass, that's being responsible.
Higgagain
Registered
Gena & Mike,
I know that when you read some of the posts, they may seem very harsh. But even though none of us knew him personally, he was a diver and everyone feels the pain of his loss.
We just try to figure out what went wrong so we can all move forward with our lives and our diving with more awareness of our own actions and the affects our choices can have on what we are doing. As well as the lives of others.
My condolences go out to his family and friends and to all the support divers who have attempted to find him. God bless you all.
Kevin Carlisle
Contributor
Sludge
Registered
I have been asked to copy a post I made on another forum:
I'm hoping you won't come back to view the posts here. If you do, you'll probably come to the conclusion that cave divers are the hardest-hearted people around.
We aren't really that way. But if you look at the history of cave diving it is filled with examples of us trying to convince the world cave diving isn't "the most dangerous sport around." Most of the people that die in underwater caves are't trained for what they were doing.
In the 1960s many, if not most, caves in Florida were closed to diving. But through a lot of positive publicity, most of them were opened to us later. But often, untrained divers venture into caves, and when they die, the public and the landowners can't differentiate between them and trained cave divers. So more caves are being closed to diving.
But the most telling aspect of this story is that experienced cave divers are unable to locate your friend. The places they are looking are very, very unstable and dangerous. I'll tell you this: I have almost 600 cave dives, and if I were asked to assist in this recovery, I would do so ONLY as surface support.
But believe this, you and his other friends and family are in our thoughts.
elledrewintn:
I'm hoping you won't come back to view the posts here. If you do, you'll probably come to the conclusion that cave divers are the hardest-hearted people around.
We aren't really that way. But if you look at the history of cave diving it is filled with examples of us trying to convince the world cave diving isn't "the most dangerous sport around." Most of the people that die in underwater caves are't trained for what they were doing.
In the 1960s many, if not most, caves in Florida were closed to diving. But through a lot of positive publicity, most of them were opened to us later. But often, untrained divers venture into caves, and when they die, the public and the landowners can't differentiate between them and trained cave divers. So more caves are being closed to diving.
But the most telling aspect of this story is that experienced cave divers are unable to locate your friend. The places they are looking are very, very unstable and dangerous. I'll tell you this: I have almost 600 cave dives, and if I were asked to assist in this recovery, I would do so ONLY as surface support.
But believe this, you and his other friends and family are in our thoughts.
Crush
Contributor
You can be pretty sure that someone with split fins, a BC, no reels, and a small hand-held torch isn't a full cave diver. If they were they wouldn't be heading into a cave with that gear.
Hetland and JahJahwarrior - nowhere did I endorse or propose assault or battery. To be sure, dumping someone's batteries would not be step 1 in "get out of here" negotiation, but it might be step 4 or 5... JahJahwarrior, your suggestions were good suggestions in steps 1, 2, and 3 "get out of here" negotiation.
JahJahwarrior, I was not being sarcastic. Nor did I suggest that flooding someone's flashlight was a perfect solution, or even a good solution. It is, however, a possible solution.
Hetland, there is no need for you to assert your manhood by threatening a fight. I am not going to touch you underwater.
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