Accident at Lake Rawlings Sunday 05/27/2012

[nimoh]

Nonsense. You made no point at all. Others have made good points -- including the one you claimed you made -- but you said nothing of value. Waste of time and bandwidth. (Why am I even responding to this?)

I think requiring two professionals in every class is not in itself a bad idea, although probably warrants a different thread. I don't think it is any more off topic than the SAC rate discussion earlier.

 

[tursiops]

I think requiring two professionals in every class is not in itself a bad idea, although probably warrants a different thread. I don't think it is any more off topic than the SAC rate discussion earlier.

I also think two professionals are needed for 2 or more students, but one is plenty for one student...so I can't go along with "two professionals in every class." This thread is about violating that very good idea, and a very unfortunate consequence. The SAC rate discussion was relevant to the cause and analysis of the death....but seems to show only stress, not running out of air.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

The SAC rate discussion was relevant to the cause and analysis of the death....but seems to show only stress, not running out of air.

I agree. Oddly, in more advanced training it's accepted that anyone can turn a dive at any time for any reason - yet this very important safety consideration is not extended to OW students and/or they are too afraid of failing the class if they turn the dive to exercise that option.

And in a situation like the Rawlings accident, being at the back of a line where you can't even see more than one or two students ahead, a diver who is uncomfortable for whatever reason is now unable to get the instructors attention to thumb the dive, and no one is abel to notice the student's high stress level and turn the dive on her behalf. That's where having another instructor or DM playing cleanup becomes very valuable as every one on the dive is then under the direct observation and supervision of an instructor or DM.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Fair enough ! Here is a scenario for all instructors (PADI or not ) .OW class, 2-4-6 -8 students -Your choice. Everyone descent and the instructor have a medical problem..... and.... dies (instructors are a human beings as well believed or not ) So who is supervising now the students !? And what are they gona do about that ..... your imagination may run wild !!!

Well if they are my open water students they will - as a buddy team - make sure I am having a problem, get me to the surface, check my vitals, and as fast as possible get me to the shore or boat, get me out of the water and begin CPR after summoning additonal help. It will be what they have been trained to do in their open water pool sessions. If I dobuted they could do it, they wouldn't be on their checkout dives.

And if I thought a pair of my OW students could not stay together in proper buddy position enough for me to keep track of them in vis better than say 4 feet, they'd still be in the pool working on that. If one instructor cannot keep track of a single buddy pair it doesn't say much for the quality of that instruction or the instructor.

 

[Cave Diver]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Off topic tangent has been deleted. If anyone wishes to pursue the merits of individual instruction, please start a new thread rather than bicker in this one.

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[Athos]

Well if they are my open water students they will - as a buddy team - make sure I am having a problem, get me to the surface, check my vitals, and as fast as possible get me to the shore or boat, get me out of the water and begin CPR after summoning additonal help. It will be what they have been trained to do in their open water pool sessions. If I dobuted they could do it, they wouldn't be on their checkout dives.

And if I thought a pair of my OW students could not stay together in proper buddy position enough for me to keep track of them in vis better than say 4 feet, they'd still be in the pool working on that. If one instructor cannot keep track of a single buddy pair it doesn't say much for the quality of that instruction or the instructor.

Mr Lapenta from now on you are my personal hero .I will call you on this one because is BS .For every one that have some experience is clear that the possibility of students on a dive 3 from check out dives to do a rescue scenario in a real world is close to 0 .But let me run this by you (I will make it as close as the accident that started this tread ).
You are in the water with a 12 year old (your only student ) is check out dive 3,your student is doing very well and you are taking him/here on tour.Did I mention that you are diving lake Rawlings? Any way we all know that there is a ledge and the tour s given on the ledge .Your student is staying in the 30-40 feet range and you are position over the edge to prevent him/here of straying .Suddenly you experience a sharp pain in your left side you get his/here attention that something is wrong and .... you pas out (i am sorry did I just kill you ?! it was for educational purpose ) .So you are slowly sinking in the 80-90f range (I forgot what was the max dept in Rawlings so excuse me if I am a little of ,In Millbrook is 92 and is a popular quarry around here for check out dives ) .
So I guess i am back to my point - check out dives with one dive professional even if is just for ONE student (this was for tursiops) may go very wrong very quick.And yes I know its a made up scenario and probably will never happen but I bet this was exactly what all involved in the accident that is discussed here was thinking .Life have the surprising ability to come up with all kind of scenarios that we can hardly imagine .Trying to stay a step ahead is probably not such a bad idea !

 

[DandyDon]

Well, Athos - sometimes I drive my car with one, young grandkid aboard. If I have a disabling event at speed, we're both in big trouble. But growing up driving on dirt roads, I've always tried to keep good exit landings in mind when reasonable. At least a student diver on #3 should be able to save himself.

If I missed your point, sorry - your wording was a bit challenging for me.

 

[Wookie]

Mr Lapenta from now on you are my personal hero .I will call you on this one because is BS .For every one that have some experience is clear that the possibility of students on a dive 3 from check out dives to do a rescue scenario in a real world is close to 0 .But let me run this by you (I will make it as close as the accident that started this tread ).
You are in the water with a 12 year old (your only student ) is check out dive 3,your student is doing very well and you are taking him/here on tour.Did I mention that you are diving lake Rawlings? Any way we all know that there is a ledge and the tour s given on the ledge .Your student is staying in the 30-40 feet range and you are position over the edge to prevent him/here of straying .Suddenly you experience a sharp pain in your left side you get his/here attention that something is wrong and .... you pas out (i am sorry did I just kill you ?! it was for educational purpose ) .So you are slowly sinking in the 80-90f range (I forgot what was the max dept in Rawlings so excuse me if I am a little of ,In Millbrook is 92 and is a popular quarry around here for check out dives ) .
So I guess i am back to my point - check out dives with one dive professional even if is just for ONE student (this was for tursiops) may go very wrong very quick.And yes I know its a made up scenario and probably will never happen but I bet this was exactly what all involved in the accident that is discussed here was thinking .Life have the surprising ability to come up with all kind of scenarios that we can hardly imagine .Trying to stay a step ahead is probably not such a bad idea !

Thems big words coming from a brand new divemaster to an instructor who has been teaching for years. Sure hope you can back them up when the time comes. But you've lost any credibility with me that you might have some small clue about what you're talking about. You didn't just become an instructor, did you? Those guys know everything.

 

[Athos]

Thems big words coming from a brand new divemaster to an instructor who has been teaching for years. Sure hope you can back them up when the time comes. But you've lost any credibility with me that you might have some small clue about what you're talking about. You didn't just become an instructor, did you? Those guys know everything.

Ok that i have lost any credibility with you brakes my heart :cool2: .But i guess my point was not made well - it was simply that any OW class needs at least 2 dive professionals, it puzzles me that people are feeling strongly against it... but every one can have an opinion including me . For example you are a boat captain right ?! I really don't know , but i will be surprised if you don't have a simple regulation of a sort - when taking your boat out with clients a captain and some kind of a vice captain (i am sorry but i really dont know what the spare captain is called ,it is not that i am trying to be original or something )needs to be present. It does not mater if it is 1 or 2 or 32 clients on board .Correct me if I am wrong .
And by the way mr Lapenta send me a pm and explained well his position on the mater and invited me to his classes to observe them if i will ,this was nice of him and I may take him up on it

 

[billt4sf]

Was there ever a definitive report issued from the authorities or PADI on the cause(s) of this accident, which occurred more than two months ago?

I just read through many pages of bickering but maybe not enough to find the reality of the situation.

Thanks,

Bill