A terrible decision ... (in my opinion)

[mavdog]

Gary D mention a risk = benefit anaylsis. I teach it this way, We risk a life to save a viable life, we risk a little to save a little and we risk nothing to save nothing. Im not a PSD. Im a Swift Watrer Rescue Tech/Instructor , (recreational diver )

 

[Desert Pirate]

BOB3>How about more like 15 minutes? We did a series of dam inspections where the first one took an hour from "boots down" to "rubber on the road" and had 45 minutes of video from the inspection.

I am impressed, It takes alot of PSD operations that long to get in the water once we are on scene.

Zieg>> Yep, off topic. Now who's comparing apples and oranges. What if senarios, let's see, you're walking down the street, it's midnight, ummmm, the sky is cloudy, so it might rain, but there is a chance you can score with the 3 year old's mom, ...

Is there a flying saucer involved guaranteening I am not gonna get caught? LMAO

 

[catskier]

Wow - this is kind of amazing some people are just not getting this discussion. There have been a number of posts from well respected / experienced PSD's and some commercial divers who both agree that this diver should never have done that dive. Yet there are still a few non PSD's that think his decision-making was sound and they are applauding him. I am sure that this is the same reason that this guy is getting all those Thank You cards.

I am both a Professional FF and work as a PSD thru my department. I can say in no uncertain terms - Sewage Backup is not a dive worth risking a life for. I will agree that many people would have been inconvenienced and may have had some expensive cleanup bills BUT the bottom line is most teams are not trained or equipped to handle a dive like that. Even those that are would probably not do the dive because it falls outside our SOP's / SOG's.

As it has already been mentioned if this was a true rescue situation then I agree most PSD's would have made the dive (even without the correct equipment) this is where the risk / benefit comes into play. But this was clearly not the case and the diver should have refused to dive and insisted that a commercial company be contacted. Unfortunately there are a number of well meaning volunteers who sometimes think that they are the only one capable of doing the job and will foolishly put themselves and co-workers at risk. I would hope now that this is over his team takes a serious look at their SOP's and takes some action to prevent a repeat. (If he was on my team he would not be allowed to dive and may even get kicked off the team.)

Unfortunately I think that there are few besides our group of professionals that can truly see what this involves and I am sure that some people will never understand.

 

[Gary D.]

Gary D mention a risk = benefit anaylsis. I teach it this way, We risk a life to save a viable life, we risk a little to save a little and we risk nothing to save nothing. Im not a PSD. Im a Swift Watrer Rescue Tech/Instructor , (recreational diver )

I like it. Mind if we use it?

Gary D.

 

[Gary D.]

Wow - this is kind of amazing some people are just not getting this discussion. There have been a number of posts from well respected / experienced PSD's and some commercial divers who both agree that this diver should never have done that dive. Yet there are still a few non PSD's that think his decision-making was sound and they are applauding him. I am sure that this is the same reason that this guy is getting all those Thank You cards.

I am both a Professional FF and work as a PSD thru my department. I can say in no uncertain terms - Sewage Backup is not a dive worth risking a life for. I will agree that many people would have been inconvenienced and may have had some expensive cleanup bills BUT the bottom line is most teams are not trained or equipped to handle a dive like that. Even those that are would probably not do the dive because it falls outside our SOP's / SOG's.

As it has already been mentioned if this was a true rescue situation then I agree most PSD's would have made the dive (even without the correct equipment) this is where the risk / benefit comes into play. But this was clearly not the case and the diver should have refused to dive and insisted that a commercial company be contacted. Unfortunately there are a number of well meaning volunteers who sometimes think that they are the only one capable of doing the job and will foolishly put themselves and co-workers at risk. I would hope now that this is over his team takes a serious look at their SOP's and takes some action to prevent a repeat. (If he was on my team he would not be allowed to dive and may even get kicked off the team.)

Unfortunately I think that there are few besides our group of professionals that can truly see what this involves and I am sure that some people will never understand.

Welcome aboard and give us some info on yourself.

I think kicking him off the team is a bit harsh. It needs to be treated as a very strong learning issue not to be repeated. They just need to learn that we MUST stay within our abilities.

Gary D.

 

[BladesRobinson]

The four commercial contractors I referenced earlier were found in the ADC directory online. A "yellow page" search also lists an additional contractor that is less than 150 miles away.

Midwest Diving Service, 4706 S. 157th Circle, Omaha, NE, 68135

My real point was not to bash this volunteer diver. I believe EVERYONE on this forum believe he was truly trying to help; and he DID! His actions showed courage and I don't see anything wrong with citizens saying "thank you." I think the world would be a better place if people said "thank you " more often.

I think that the risk/benefit decision was poor. There were other options to consider before putting lives at risk.

As public safety divers we need to be able to "think on our feet" and consider options. I shared this story, on this forum, so fellow public safety divers could play the "what if" game and learn. It has stirred some healthy debate and I believe readers ARE learning.

Who do we call when we have an emergency?
Most would say 911.

Who do public safety divers call when they have an emergency?
We turn to private contractors, mutual aid communities and higher levels of government (State & Federal).

We know commercial diving contractors are available and we only have to turn to the yellow pages or the internet to find a list of capable companies. Was there any consideration to see if another public safety dive team in the region had the proper (or better) equipment? Was the State contacted to see if the State Police had a well equipped dive team? How about Public Work Directors in other communities? How about the U. S. Army Corps of Engineers?

Was there consideration to bypass the pump or use other pumps to move the water elsewhere (to the next lift station)? Was a reverse 911 system used to call citizens and explain the situation and ask them not to flush? Was there a consideration to lower the pressure in the fresh water system so there would be less water flowing into the sewer system? How long would it take to pump three feet of water out of the lift station and put it in a portable tank? A "porta john" truck could have been utilized as could a road and bridge vacuum truck.

Did anyone consider "lock out/tag out" and secure pumps and electrical sources? The person photographed in the sewer system with the diver is wearing a life vest (that is a plus) but was the air tested to see if he could be there without PPE and self contained breathing apparatus (SCBA)?

Did anyone consider having the mutual aid or commercial dive team flown in by the sheriffs office helicopter or National Guard? How about a fixed winged aircraft? Someone mentioned it would take 15 minutes or so to gear up, once they were on the ground. How long would it take to throw an air panel, several divers and drysuits, and several bags of umbilical hose into a helicopter?

There are MANY options to consider and I believe the officials made the best decison they could under the circumstances. Kudos to them!

Where the "system" failed, in my opinion, was allowing the breakdown in the first place. Why didn't they have a good preventative maintenance program so this wouldn't happen? Why didn't they have a call list for properly trained and equipped divers/dive contractors?

I think someone, somewhere made a bad decision. Whether is was because money wasn't budgeted for preventative maintenance, or the city fathers cut the budget, or the volunteer team hadn't received the funding needed to properly protect divers, someone is responsible for risking the life of this diver.

I am certain better options were available and hopefully the community has thought this out so there isn't a need to do something similar again.

Just my opinion...

Blades

 

[mavdog]

I like it. Mind if we use it?

Gary D.

The Instructor I got it from says "Once you use it three times its all yours" so by all means.

 

[bridgediver]

Everyone seems to be citing his risk of Hep B infection, etc. but at the same time are ignoring the much broader public health risk that would have occurred had they waited a few days to several days to get a properly equipped commercial operation on site to do the job. Raw sewage backing up into basements and toilets all over own is more than just messy.

That equation is distinctly different than a PSD rescue situation where the risk/benefit distribution between victim(s) and divers are usually far closer to one to one.

Also, how many of you have lived in or even been to Grand Island, NE? It is not a hot spot of commercial diving activity and it also tends to have a much more caring and community service centered feel to it. I probaly would not dive in that stuff for any of you (even with a vulcanized rubber suit and a helmet) but I'd do it for a small town friend and neighbor.

I'd cut the guy some slack.

The Hep b stuff is an expression that this guy likely won't walk away from doing this free and clear - If this guy doesn't get sick (maybe not as bad as hep B) I'd be very surprised.

ALL the PSDs and commercial guys will say that this guy is lucky to have survived given all the red flags in this "procedure" many more have died doing far less riskier things.

Consider if he did die in the sewage (which the people in the know all agree on here was highly probable) and now had to be rescued/recovered. First, there's his PSD team members that may be compelled to get him out dispite their better jugement because he is one of their own and now they're at risk. Second, the guys widow who didn't want him doing this in the first place. Still think he's a nice guy?
I call him one extremely selfish

There's better way to get thank you cards and new dive gear.

I live in a Canadian province similar in demographics as Nebraska except we're alot less populated and I'm sure have alot less commercial dive outfits. The ones we see listed on this thread are the ones we know about - I'm sure theres more and it should be this cities responsibility to identify and use them when required. If we can get commercial guys in fast up here so can they. My feeling is that this city didn't even try. Its ridiculus to think that a waste water organization would be so clueless and think they have to resort to this. Theres something going on here that we don't know

As far as the FD getting trained to be sewage divers - thats not the job of a FD (and would be illegal - at least up here). Commercial diving is a specialty CAREER in itself not to mention the hundreds of THOUSANDS of $ it would take to maintain and train a team when all they need to do is pick up the phone

 

[bridgediver]

How does that compare to one volunteer PSD (who probably also volunteers to run into burning buildings) volunteering to do a dive that will prevent biologically hazardous waste from backing up into toilets and basements all over town before an as yet uncontacted, uncontracted and possibly not even immediately available or properly equipped commercial crew could arrive? People in many fields take calculated risks in their jobs every day and I a pretty sure that saying "no" or sayiung we are in the process of letting contracts to resovle the sewage problem (that we could have prevented) within the next week or so would have also made the papers along with each and every one of the health related lawsuits that would have resulted. The big picture needs to be considered in a cost benefit analysis, not just the little picture.

The difference here, DA is that a FF is TRAINED and PROPERLY equipped to go into burning buildings. A PSD is (hopefully) TRAINED and PROPERLY equipped to do PSD work. Diving in sewage to turn a valve is CLEARLY not PSD work to all who understand what a PSD is - he was neither properly trained or equipped and therefore should not have been there. period.

the "cost/benefit analysis" remark is huge. What is a persons life worth?

 

[muddiver]

I think that DA Aquamaster has already made it clear on other threads that in his opinion that if you have a SCUBA rig, fins and a mask you are a qualified comercial diver.

Now, I agree with bridgediver in that even if a trained and equiped construction specialist (often called a commercial diver) had been dipped in that soup, he could even get in trouble from things that have not been mentioned. I was was just thinking about the hazard of a used syringe floating around in that mess and how it could penitrate a good vulcanized rubber suit almost as easy at exposed flesh.