A terrible decision ... (in my opinion)

[Teamcasa]

Unsafe? Surely. However, the article I read said he did it because time was very short. The raw sewage was backing up into the homes of local residences and he felt that if they waited for a full commercial dive operation to arrive and setup, the sewage would have ruined many a locals holiday plans, not to mention the serious health risks to hundreds of other people.

He knew the risks and how dangerous it was but decided to do it anyway. Does this make him stupid or compassionate. It pretty easy to sit back and say, “Nope, not me! I’m not going to risk my life/health to help out others.”


I applaud his action. I also hope I have the courage to act in the selfless way he did should I be asked someday.

 

[bridgediver]

Just had a nice little chat with OSHA and Nebraska State Workforce as I was curious this little event.

Some food for thought. - the guy was not employed by the city, he volunteered as such OSHA would not be involved. OSHA would only be involved if he was an employee. Nor would the state. So no matter how dumb what he did was not a violation of safety cause he was not a employee. If the city paid him then OSHA would be all over it.

Now here is the kicker the city has no obligation to replace his gear. Again because he volunteered. The same if he had been injured or killed. He volunteer to do due something that was reckless. And as a PSD he would have known to be reckless.

About the only way that anything could be done wold be to have a chat with the city's insurance provider. As they like to know things like this because they would probably advise them that they are not to use volunteers who are not specifically train in the commercial work that needs to be performed. Lest there will not be coverage in case of an accident.

Maybe its different down there but up here it doesn't matter if you're paid or not - you are subject to the rules of the road.

Where the real money could have been lost is if the widow decided to file a civil suit against the municipality - millions. He didn't die (yet) but years down the road when this "hero" starts getting sick with hepititis and dozens of other potential aliments maybe he'll sue for a few hundered thousand or so.
Municipalities have deep pockets and almost always loose - every lawyer knows this

 

[RiverRat]

I applaud his action. I also hope I have the courage to act in the selfless way he did should I be asked someday.

Was it a nice thing to do? Sure it was. And that should be noted. But it was also stupid and I know I'm not about to do a dive like that just to fix someones sewer problems. Save someones life? Yeah then I'd probably take a big risk and do it. There is another thread on the board about 2 divers that got sucked into a grate and died a horrible death. They should have known better and skipped many safety protocols. Think about it.....

 

[bridgediver]

At first i thought this was a troll -- but seeing as you're a moderator...

The raw sewage was backing up into the homes of local residences and he felt that if they waited for a full commercial dive operation to arrive and setup, the sewage would have ruined many a locals holiday plans,

Big deal. How does a few hundered backed up toilets and ruined basements justify risking someones life?

He knew the risks and how dangerous it was but decided to do it anyway. Does this make him stupid or compassionate.

I don't believe he fully understand the risks (as you clearly don't either) if he did he would trully be an idiot for doing it.

It pretty easy to sit back and say, “Nope, not me! I’m not going to risk my life/health to help out others.”

Be careful with a statement like this one. Most of the PSDs on this forum risk their life and health on a daily basis either as divers or other work in emergency services. Our whole lives are centered around "help out others" and determining whats a justified risk and whats not. This is CLEARLY not.

So far on this thread we've got several highly experienced and knowledgeable PSDs AND commercial guys all saying the same thing.

 

[Bob3]

I've blown the whistle before after having seen someone make a dive like this; I figure doing so may well save someone's life.
The last time that happened, a major city had their PSD dive op shut down for almost 2 years while they "repented" and got things straightened out.
I won't mention which city, I have to drive through sometimes & don't like to be on the "persons of interest" list.

The sewage backups into people's homes may well have put this op into the "emergency" category though, as long as the situation was really as described.

That being said, if the guy is employed by the local government for his usual "day job", OSHA may well have a different view of things.

... If they had hired a professional dive contractor with the proper equipment, I wonder how much money they could have saved. ...

Our half-day rate used to be $650 + mileage, first 50 mi free. ($1250/day + per diem)
That was almost 10 years ago & with a bona-fide 3-man crew though.

Just about he only time we had to bill for gear was when it got too "hot" after diving in containment. ("crapped up" is the industry term for that, too radioactive to leave the can.)

 

[Teamcasa]

First let me say that I am not a PSD nor do have any experience in that arena. I do apologize if my thoughts or opinion offended anyone. It was not my intention to do so. In addition, I do greatly appreciate the training and risk PSD’s do to safe life, limb and property. Having many members of my family involved in fire fighting, EMT’s and search and rescue teams, I do have some right to my opinion.

I was just amazed by this guys selflessness. Sure, it was dangerous but I don’t think it was stupid, he thought it out before jumping in. I am also sure that his actions will be discussed from every point of view.

 

[Gary D.]

I applaud his action. I also hope I have the courage to act in the selfless way he did should I be asked someday.

Having the courage is one thing. Having the knowledge and training is another. Having the courage without the training and knowledge of the circumstances results in the next of kin being notified way too often.

We do some very unusual things when looked at by the non PSD diving community. Some say it’s dangerous which many times it is. But one thing TRAINED PSD’s don’t do is step outside Risk vs Benefit. Now that being said, was it worth him possibly losing his life over some crap on the floor?

Had that been a human trapped in a situation where they may still be alive and possibly RESCUED, I or any member on my team would have gone. There would have been a couple of safety precautions taken which they didn’t take that wouldn’t have taken any more time. But to do it for an overflowing sewer, not a bright idea.

I have a natural immunity to Hep A & B so I do the poop plunges when they are needed. But that still does not protect everyone else involved.

This was a plain and simple commercial dive operation and nothing else. There are companies out there to clean up the mess later. There are no companies out there to return the life into a dead diver that had the courage to do this dive.

Gary D.

 

[BladesRobinson]

Some food for thought. - the guy was not employed by the city, he volunteered as such OSHA would not be involved. OSHA would only be involved if he was an employee. Nor would the state. So no matter how dumb what he did was not a violation of safety cause he was not a employee. If the city paid him then OSHA would be all over it.

I am surprised that the "official" you spoke to would offer such an opinion. Volunteer firefighters follow the same standards as career firefighters. The person who makes $10 per hour still has to follow the same rules as the person who makes $50.

I am not an attorney (obviously) and would very much enjoy an opportunity to learn from someone smarter than myself. Are there any ScubaBoard attorney/divers out there who can weigh in on this issue?

I'm not saying the "official" was wrong but I would like to hear a second opinion.

Assuming the "official" was correct, I can see a huge loop hole in labor law. For commercial diving contractors, they could pay their employees travel time, then the divers could "volunteer" to do the dive op (no safety standards needed) then go back on the clock on their drive home. Window washers could "volunteer" as they fall off the scaffold and no OSHA fine would be levied because they weren't wearing harnesses. The list could go on, and that is why I believe the "official" was mistaken.

One thing to consider is the diver was a member of the volunteer dive team which functions under the authority of a governmental agency. I believe he dove in the capacity of dive team member and not as "Joe Diver-Citizen." Had he been killed on this operation, I believe it would have been defined as a "line of duty death" and benefits would have been paid. As such, he WOULD BE an employee and it wouldn't matter if he was paid or not. ASSUMING he was diving as a team member, the OSHA exemption for public safety diving would not apply as the "safety" of the public was not at risk. (They could have been evacuated, etc)

Again, my thoughts only. I would enjoy hearing more from an attorney or more senior official.

To TEAMCASA, I too admire the diver's commitment to serve his community but this dive was NOT within his level of training and the risks far exceeded the potential benefit. This is why many, including myself, believe this was a bad decision. There were two commercial diving contractors within 235 miles and two more within 510 miles and possibly some closer. If there was a urgent need, having professional commercial divers delivered by the sheriffs office helicopter (or the National Guard for that matter) could have been a better option.

I am confident that those responsible for this decision made the BEST decision they could at the time using all of the knowledge and training they had. I am really hopeful they have LEARNED since this event and the next time, the situation is handled differently (better). Possibly getting their volunteer divers better training and equipment and teaching them about OSHA and ADC standards (and the need for compliance when a municipal operation falls outside the veil of "public safety") may be an option.

This is also an opportunity for ScubaBoard forum members to learn too. What options are available in your community? How could things be done better? Safer?

That is the purpose of the ScubaBoard and in my opinion the responsibility of ALL public safety divers ... to continue learning and striving to do better.

My opinion...

Blades

 

[tc]

We did a bit of research on this with CALOSHA since we have volunteers on our team. The distinction they drew for us is that if an employer/employee relationship exists at all then the rules apply and they are not exempted as volunteers. One question CALOSHA asked- Do you issue ID cards to your volunteers? If so- as far as OSHA was concerned they are employees.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Everyone seems to be citing his risk of Hep B infection, etc. but at the same time are ignoring the much broader public health risk that would have occurred had they waited a few days to several days to get a properly equipped commercial operation on site to do the job. Raw sewage backing up into basements and toilets all over own is more than just messy.

That equation is distinctly different than a PSD rescue situation where the risk/benefit distribution between victim(s) and divers are usually far closer to one to one.

Also, how many of you have lived in or even been to Grand Island, NE? It is not a hot spot of commercial diving activity and it also tends to have a much more caring and community service centered feel to it. I probaly would not dive in that stuff for any of you (even with a vulcanized rubber suit and a helmet) but I'd do it for a small town friend and neighbor.

I'd cut the guy some slack.