a retreat from DIR

[LiteHedded]

wow looked like a great thread until people totally derailed it and started attacking him.
also why is this in basic scuba discussions?

 

[jonnythan]

wow looked like a great thread until people totally derailed it and started attacking him.
also why is this in basic scuba discussions?

Where would you put it?

 

[CD_in_Chitown]

The SPG on the hip is probably a little harder to justify to a diver who does not carry stages, but once you start doing that, it becomes obvious why the SPG needs to be there. Even without stages, it is much more streamlined if it is hip-clipped - running it to the chest D-ring puts a loop in the hose, which increases the risk of entanglement and puts unnecessary stress on the mechanical connections.

I dozed off between 8-11 there are some intelligent points in there, thanks for your patience in reposting Jeff...

Kinda matches the argument I made on page 11, but as long as it doesn't interfere with your ability to share gas with me I might still dive with you.

 

[LiteHedded]

Where would you put it?

he's looking for responses from DIR people so that's probably where I'd put it
cave diving and rigs like his don't seem basic to me i guess

 

[Dan Gibson]

The posts are coming too quickly. I'm totally confused. What is Andy wearing and where is he wearing it? There must have been a shift to a hypothetical and I missed it?

I thought Andy had problems unclipping his SPG (on the left) while using a stage. Why check the backgas SPG while on the stage? The SPG that would matter is on the stage. Drop it and then the backgas is not a problem to get to. When you exit, the reverse happens. I only check my backgas SPG at predive, just after the stage drop, approaching turn on backgas after the stage has been dropped, or when the team decides to recalculate 1/3rds on the way out when we decide to just play around near the entrance. I just don't see how cliping the SPG on the left chest D-ring is helpful. It cluters the D-ring if carrying multiple stags or deco gas.

The light in the right is is temporary hold only in DIR. If someone taught it goes in the right during a fundamentals class, either Andy was mistaken or the instructor misspoke. I doubt anyone at GUE is teaching the primary hold is the right. Heck, my instructor (David Rhea) spanked me often in both Cave 1 and 2 because I had by backup light in my right hand too often. Needless to say he swipped it more than once.

Hey Andy,

Trying to get back on track...
Just wanted to get some clarification on how you were taught vs what changes you are making.
In post 152 you say:
"i was taught in DIR-F that the light went on the right hand,"
But in post 167 you say:
"now, i am also carrying my light on the right hand ... further distancing me from the DIR
standard."

Was wondering if one was a typo? I am assuming you meant that you were taught to use the light in the left hand in DIR-F?

 

[jonnythan]

It's not appropriate for the DIR forum. The DIR forum's rules specify that it's there for the discussion of what is DIR... not a place for discussing alternatives.

He may be cave diving, but his questions and comments are not cave diving specific at all.

Basic Scuba Discussions is the appropriate place. It's about basic gear placement - light and SPG.

 

[Jasonmh]

I have, I've seen tons of "It's not DIR", or "When its time for DIR to change WKPP will tell us" but haven't seen anything behind the reasoning for the SPG position.

Really? Well, since I have plenty of time on my hands, here is what I saw.. to summerize all the great DIR advice that was given for the whys of the parts Andy was asking. To me it seemed like tons of good info, not a "its not DIR" put off:

Onfloat:

How do the changes affect your diving team? I know that when I'm diving I will sneak a glance at my buddies spg every so often and he doesn't even have to know.

The light on the left hand, keeps the right hand free for scootering and tying line while running it, among other things, so......


TSandM:

Do you wrap it around your forearm? That's always seemed awkward to me, and maybe even risky. And if you have to air-share, aren't you going to blind your buddy -- particularly bad deal in a cave, I would think.

Tollie:

In an OOA event you are passing the reg with the light hand thus the light will be shining directly into the eyes of the receiver. This seems like a problem to me. As for the spg at first it was awkward but by now as you have been diving the dir system it should be second nature to you. There may be a couple of reasons. First, insufficient drill. I clipped and unclipped about 50 times in a row one dive just to get it down. Second is the possibility that the hose is too long or too short relative to your body size thus when you reclip you are not hitting the d-ring. Third… is the d-ring properly positioned so you can hit it easily?

think strict DIR trained folks will expect it in the hip position… you are creating a complication and uncertainty that skills training should avoid.

I know you know this mantra but once you begin to tinker with a holistic system other parts do not work as smoothly… including team skills.


Aquaoren:

you shouldn't try to replace skills with a new equipment

Floater:

To me (and I may change my mind as I gain more experience) having the SPG on the left hip d-ring, out of the way, makes sense because you are not supposed to even need it except as a check and should know* what it says before you even look at it (preferably at opportune, non-task loaded moments) to double check your remaining gas. on the chest it would seem to add clutter, but I haven't tried it that way.

Onfloat:

We are actually taught to hand off with the mouth piece down to minimize free flows.

While scootering you are using your right hand to drive and steer the scooter, with the light on your left you can keep it in your buddies view and use it for signaling and not come off the trigger.

Running line the reel and light are in your left hand and you can tie off to different points with your right. It doesn't require any acrobatics, hand switching, to get it done.


Dan Gibson:

Take that one step farther. What practical advantage does carrying it in the right hand have if you do scooter. Just remember, it's all based with the end in mind.

As for someone having problems with the light cord catching on things or extra task loading, I hate to say it because it sounds like bashing, but it begs the question if one should be in a cave if these things are a problem for the diver. These are basics that should be mastered if one cave dives. It does take practice.


passive comminucation is not a steady as the left hand when scootering. Try putting the light beam where it should be and trying to steer a scooter at the same time.

Another that can be a problem with scooters is the glare off the body if you have the light in the right hand. It can be quite annoying not having the light head out in front where there should be less glare.

I won't go into the air share complication if one is on a scooter, but I would certainly feel better not having both in my right hand when one happens and I need to donate.


I still believe the left hand is better as it leaves the right immediately free for an OOA. I have practiced an OOA with an early JJ trained student who still wraps the light cord around the right arm. Needless to say, the OOA wasn't the prettiest. He actually used some sort of left handed manuever to deploy. For a couple of seconds, all I saw was a free flow because he turned it mouth piece up. It also didn't end up with the best handoff of the reg because of the way it was held by the doner; upside down and with a hand entirely over the purge. However, I do know it can be done without a freeflow and the mouthpice turned down by using a left hand deployment. As for wrapping on the right and using the right to donate the reg. All I can say is close your eyes or you will likely get blinded at some point.

I also find running a reel and carrying the light both in the left hand easier; especially in high flow.

Cornfed:

When I'm actually passing the reg to someone I generally keep the mouth piece down and I don't turn the mouth piece towards them until right before handing it off. That means the top of my hand is up and the light will be pointed at them for most of the drill


Jonnythan:

If he had a light in his hand, it would be shining directly into the other guy's eyes during the pass off and while putting the reg into the mouth.


Aquaoren:

Let me ask you something. Do you really think that when the **** hits the fan, everything will go as smooth as you always drilled it? Can you really rule out that when everyone is stressed that you will not shine your HID in someone eyes from a 15 cm distance? If you would be the OOA diver would you want to take the risk that someone will do that to you? Blind you when you're already in some distress?
As I said before, YMMV but you know the DIR answer


JimC:

The simplest answer is to shorten the light cord.

xiSkiGuy:

found that I had to reach over and push the "backlight" button to read the gauge, instead of just shining my light on it. I asked the instructor about this and he has his wrist gauge on the left wrist. To me that switch introduces issues when trying to adjust buoyancy and maintain depth without visual reference.


Plankspanker:

at the same time if someone was OOA for real and they had to swim over to you or for whatever reason the donation wasn't instant I think the stress level would go up considerably over a normal drill and that you shouldn't take the reaction to being blinded lightly.

3. what about the situation of a three man team where the last two people in line are dealing with the OOA, being able to signal the leader would be a good thing. 2 or 3 seconds is enough for someone to get around a corner



JeffG:
As far as your spg goes...you are using a gear configuration change to compensate for a skill issue.


vbcoachris:

I did the same thing with the light and the SPG for a while after Fundamentals, but after REC Triox it became abundantly clear that the system works well only if every team member is on the same page. Even small changes can cause the system to break down under water.
As for the light on the right hand; I’m sure you can perform an OOG scenario without shining your light in your team member’s eyes consistently in a controlled situation, but why even risk the chance that you might not be able to in a real life situation


you:
I want to know how having the SPG hooked to the chest d helps the situation, what with inflator hoses and stages I mean its kind of full already it seems.


ScubaMilo:

It has been pointed out earlier in the thread that the light in the right hand may present an unsafe situation during OOG situation.(due to blinding your buddy or inability to signal rest of team)
The response was I would hold my hand in a some other way or that temporary blinding was not an issue.
IMO this in it self represents a possible unsafe attitude.
Therfore My comment about not choosing to dive except on Rec. dive.


Lamont:
stages on the left would likely obstruct deployment of the long hose. you want to keep the right side reasonably clean


And of course EVERY post by DIR-Atlanta….

 

[jonnythan]

I have, I've seen tons of "It's not DIR", or "When its time for DIR to change WKPP will tell us" but haven't seen anything behind the reasoning for the SPG position.

Huh.

Who said that?

That being asked, please read the post above mine and you might want to read the entire thread.

 

[CD_in_Chitown]

With all apologies to Dan Gibson, IN Cavediver, OBG, and others that made contributive efforts, its hard to seperate info from noise sometimes in these topics you have to read a few times through

Yeah, you should let this group of beginners know that:
http://www.wkpp.org

There have been and will be changes to the DIR system. But those changes don't come about because some just feels like doing it differently one day.

Did my paraphrasing ruffle your feathers? Thanks for the cliffs

 

[Jasonmh]

I dozed off between 8-11 there are some intelligent points in there, thanks for your patience in reposting Jeff...

Kinda matches the argument I made on page 11, but as long as it doesn't interfere with your ability to share gas with me I might still dive with you.

oops, looks like my post wasn't needed.. they post are coming fast and furious, and I didn't see your response before I posted.
Oh well, maybe someone else will enjoy the summary