A new wreck for Australian East Coast the HMAS Brisbane

[Grajan]

Good to see you here making your case. I do not want to get into a flame war. I voiced what was clearly an opinion and did not make any factual claims. I do disapprove of this activity for INEXPERIENCED divers.

I will respond on my 'qualifications' although I do not think opinions need to be qualified.

1. I am DM trained and worked as a dive leader many years ago. I still dive regularly and am updating my training at the moment (rescue course and DAN O2 provider recently).

2. I am ex special forces. I have carried out numerous insertions by helicopter in many different circumstances and conditions including active service. I have also spent more than twelve years working offshore, routinely travelling by helicopter. I have done many offshore survival courses and have carried out HUET (Helicopter Underwater Escape Training) more than six times. MY HUET certification is current. As part of my current work I supervise offshore operations and have a strong interest in operational safety. I am also a pilot (not helicopters).

3. I have no knowledge or opinion of your training and preparation. I assume we have similar backgrounds and your preparation will be thorough. I did not at any time comment on YOUR training. I was very careful to restrict my comments to the experience requirements of the divers. I am very well aware of the average competence of an OW diver with ten dives. In my opinion it would take more than a day (not to mention another fifty dives) to effectively prepare them for this sort of pre-dive distraction.

I hope that clarifies my context. My problem is not with your organization but with the general movement towards inadequate training and increased risk in diving as it has moved from being a 'sport' to being an 'industry'.

EDIT:
I have been thinking about what riled me enough to even start this debate. I have participated in a number of 'adrenaline junkie' activities and also a number of high risk sports. In my view good (therefore safe) diving, in particular, is ALL about attitude, calm, control - almost a Zen activity.

Mixing this with something as antithetical as a helicopter insertion seems completely peverse. If people want to do a heli-insertion then do it with a life jacket and get picked up using a RIB but not as a precursor to diving. Diving stats already suffer enough from depth machismo without another way to 'amp it up'.

Thank you for your comments in relation to Heli Diver qualifications.

I would like the opportunity to respond to your concerns regarding the qualifications of divers (or in your opinion, lack thereof) that you have raised in relation to heli diving activities.

Could I first ask a couple of questions of you...

1. What experience do you have as a diver?
2. What experience do you have with helicopters?
3. Are you aware of the training and safety aspects of heli diving and the checks / training carried out on all participants prior to conducting practical heli diving activities?

I look forward to getting the answers to the above questions before I respond to your concerns.

Heli Diver

 

[helidiver]

Thank you for the time taken to respond to my questions.

Fisrtly, I won't quote what you have already expressed in your opinions as you and others in this forum are already aware of those, but based on your experience, I hardly think that your "opinions" don't effect our organisation, the very organisation that conducts the activity you have a problem with. I think this view of yours is quite naive considering the knowledge and experience you claim.

You further go on to talk about inadequate training and the "movement" towards this industry approach but claim in the same breath that you have no problem with our organisation. Again, your naivety in this topic is further exposed.

Yes, I will make a case for this activity and one thing you can count on, it will be an educated and informed one. I have once defended uneducated opinions in another dive forum and have no problem in "educating" anyone interested who wants to know the facts.

One point I would like to make at this time is that you state "opinions don't need to be qualified" however for your own benefit, I feel you should practice them to be "informed" ones. Informed opinions are based on research and/or factual data and information, which is not seen in the expressed views you have posted to date. Have you any statistics on diver "deaths" from helicopters? Have you any data on injuries sustained by divers undertaking this activity? Have you any information apart from your opinion? It can be assumed by any diver reading your opinions that they are somehow "informed". This is where I have a problem with your case.

From an industry perspective, your thoughts on minimum experience of divers is noted, however what you fail to realise and consider is that this is the minimum allowable qualifications. Adjustments to cater for all experience levels can be undertaken as to not effect diver safety adversely. Your lack of considering such factors shows your experience. I can say that most divers who participate in this activity are in fact Rescue Diver or above. There are Open Water divers undertaking this activity and they participate based on their and our opinions on how well they can handle the activity. What you don't know is that any diver undertaking this activity is evaluated first, then trained, briefed, and with dive profiles planned by our staff. Proper planning for normal and emergency operating procedures will allow the largest and most efficient level of safety in the event of any problems occuring, if or when they arise. Furthermore, you fail to consider the training undertaken by divers prior to this activity. You are only as good as the people who train you. This is an aspect of our organisation that you have no knowledge of when expressing your opinions. Myself, with over 4000 command hours in helicopters in special operations along with extensive experience in training divers from the minimum standard through to Navy Clearance Divers, Police Divers, etc. I would claim to be knowledgable in this area. I also have personally conducted over 3000 deplanes of divers, 2 to 4 at a time (same sortie) in various helicopter types and not one diver has even a scratch on their little finger to show for it. Furthermore, they have gone on to do recreational dives following the activity (as done in the Heli Diver Course and subsequent heli dives) with no injuries sustained or reported. My crew's qualifications range from ex-Navy Clearance Divers, helicopter aircrew instructors, a Course Director, and a minimum MSDT level dive instructor with experience levels of 3000 to 5000 dives along with operational military and rescue experience. These are the facts, and I will allow any diver to consider these views presented on this basis and not just as my opinion.

On the organisational level, our company is the only approved helicopter operator in Australia to conduct these activities outside a real emergency, issued by Australia's Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) which is the equivalent to the FAA, apart from Police, and EMS Rescue units. In addition, this course is a module program to the only approved training syllabus for Helicopter Aircrew Officers in Australia, recognised by all member nations of ICAO set up by the United Nations. You don't get recognised in this area unless you know what you are doing, in fact, unless you are considered to have expertise in this area. In drawing up the new conditions set for such deplaning activities to be adopted by police and rescue units, we were in fact consulted by CASA in drawing up those guidelines and helped set the experience levels for all operators.

You do manage to refer to "diving stats suffering" in your views but what you fail to express is any detail on the actual statistics and any contributing factors to any such incidents that have been reported as causes for such accidents. Anyone with university level education will know that this is insufficient evidence to base and express opinions. Again, this is where I have a problem with your views as you base them on no knowledge and you don't back them up adequately. One thing I can tell you is that any statistics you present, the factors in diving related accidents and incidents will not mention helicopter deplaning, nor our organisation as contributing factors. Furthermore, you will probably find that causal factors will be either training deficiencies or organisational lack of supervision as contributing factors. This is based on finding out the facts prior to expressing any views, particularly when they would appear to the inexperienced, as "educated" views on the topic.

At the end of the day, I respect your right to voice an opinion, but what I would ask you do in future is to present facts to back up your opinion. It may save you any potential embarrassment when dealing with experts and to organisations like ours, the time in having to "make a case" when there is no need to do so. Divers will make there own judgements based on actually participating in the activity and/or on the opinions of those who have actually experienced what we offer. The data and workload we have from word-of-mouth views on our product in this area speaks for itself.

Save diving.

Heli Diver

 

[Grajan]

As expected you are thorough and you have made your case clearly. I think it is a little unfortunate that you chose to do it, in part, by trying to discredit me but I guess thats how the world works these days.

I never doubted (or challenged) the competence of your organization. We'll have to agree to differ on the fundamental compatibility of these activities or the minimum experience appropriate.

Call it a day? I'm not inclined to counter the jibes and I've got nothing more to add.

Good luck with it all

 

[helidiver]

G,

Thank you for your time.

It wasn't my intension to try to discredit you, more to inform others that your opinions presented here lacked credible references to actual statistics or knowledge in relation to this activity or this particular product. My objective here was to present factual information so that divers can make informed choices as to the diving activities that they participate in, and involved having to point out that your opinions were exactly that, opinions, and I think we all here respect those, so long as they are clearly expressed in that context.

Take care and all the best in your diving activities.

Heli Diver

As expected you are thorough and you have made your case clearly. I think it is a little unfortunate that you chose to do it, in part, by trying to discredit me but I guess thats how the world works these days.

I never doubted (or challenged) the competence of your organization. We'll have to agree to differ on the fundamental compatibility of these activities or the minimum experience appropriate.

Call it a day? I'm not inclined to counter the jibes and I've got nothing more to add.

Good luck with it all

 

[Aussie Diver]

Hi Helidiver,
Couple of questions. when are you guys moving your operation up to Qld? Also, how much disturbance is caused by a helicopter coming in and dropping people off who are sitting on the surface/in a boat? I assume it wouldn't be a problem, but I'm curious.

 

[helidiver]

Aussie Diver,

Thank you for your questions.

We will be full time on the Sunshine Coast by 13th August 2005.

If you look at the front page of the website you can see an image on the far left which shows the level of downwash from the helicopter which is basically very little. This is the reason for the selection of this type of aircraft. We were initially going to use a Huey ! A 4.5 tonne ex-Vietnam UH-1H. That would blow most boats away, so over the years we have trialed different types to see what are the most effective, efficient, and environmentally sensitive. Helicopters (depending on where you go and who is flying) get a bad wrap most of the time so the smart operators like us do what we can to minimise impacts through careful planning.

You are right, we have operated for many years now in built-up areas around Sydney and have never had a complaint, so that may shed some light on the impact. In fact one time we were doing diver drops at a particular spot and I was using the sand dunes as a reference point for the hover height, and the first drops I didn't notice anyone on the dunes. By the time we returned for the 2nd drops, the sand dunes were packed with onlookers. Most people see what we do as an exciting thing to do, with the remainder excited to watch.

Heli Diver

Hi Helidiver,
Couple of questions. when are you guys moving your operation up to Qld? Also, how much disturbance is caused by a helicopter coming in and dropping people off who are sitting on the surface/in a boat? I assume it wouldn't be a problem, but I'm curious.

 

[Aussie Diver]

Thanks Helidiver, looking forwards to giving it a try.