A few words about the real DIR guys...

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You want the long comparative anatomy lecture or the short one? :D

Ok, to keep this "short" I won't get into tooth adaptation or variations in predator feeding strategies, which could take several pages. I'll also limit things to the placental mammals (that's us) and leave the marsupials (Koalas and Roos) out of it.
Pandas have a digestive system that is very poorly adapted to their diet. They have to make up for it by eating rather a lot of bamboo in order to get the required calories.

Horses and rabbits both have large caeca (blind sacs). They are hindgut fermenters (yet another good reason not to stand to close to a horse's *** - fermentation produces some interesting odours and rather a lot of gas).

The plant material roughage that is fermented in the foregut of a ruminant (cow, deer, etc.) and converted very efficiently to protein BEFORE the proteolytic stomach gets fermented in the hindgut of many other animals, including horses and rabbits. This releases volatile fatty acids, which can be absorbed through the caecum wall. The fecal material tends to be rather high in protein generated by the protozoans and bacteria that do the fermenting (again, in a cow these get digested later - very efficient).
Horses end up losing out on this protein but they do benefit from the fatty acids (this is not as efficient as the ruminant "four stomach" system). A horse that's working needs a higher protein diet (grain mash) than a cow - and a goat can live on stuff that would starve most other animals.

Now for the disgusting bit. Rabbits have a system for taking advantage of the protein produced in their hindguts. It's called coprophagy. They produce two kinds of fecal pellets - a soft, high protien one that they reingest, and a drier "twice digested" one that has a much lower protein content.

Humans have no caecum left - the remnants are known as the appendix. Make of this what you will.

Most other primates, including the mountain gorilla (which has a caecum), do derive some of their protein from animal sources - bugs, slugs, small birds. An awful lot of supposedly "vegetarian" animals (including squirrels) will snag animal protein when it comes along, often in the form of insect larvae and eggs.

The colon's main function in humans is to reabsorb *water* (and a few electrolytes, etc) and to store undigested food temporarily. And ours is pretty unimpressive compared to those of the other great apes (who have fermentation chambers right before the colon). Absorption of nutrients is the primary function of the *small* intestine. Comparing gut anatomy of the other great apes leads to some interesting results (we have less total gut for our body mass and what we do have is more heavily weighted to the small intestine than that of other great apes). There's more on this if you want detail.

Not all vegetarian diets are alike - fruit requires a different digestive setup than grains, while a diet of grasses and other low-nutrient/high cellulose foods really requires some form of fermentation mechanism. Top of the vegetarian heap are foods like nuts which are high in both protein and fat.

I could go on, but the audience is probably asleep already. Just want to add a couple of things to think about:
1. the preferred diet of many great apes tends to be mighty high in low pH foods (fruit) - might want to compare this to the "alkaline" fad that's big right now (acid in the stomach helps protect against invading bacteria as well as activiating the enzymes needed for proper digestion of protiens)
2. before deciding to eat *just* like your ancestors did, you might want to consider how long they tended to live (and whether you like the idea of dining on insects).

Happy termite-munching! :D Cat (who apologizes to the other posters for the temporary dietary hijacking)

PS: whatever you do, don't eat like an orangutan - in the wild they consume (among other things) fruit from the genus Strychnos - the source for strychnine poison. (add your own Kool-Aid joke here)
 
Very informative cat, and not boring at all!
 
SeaJay once bubbled...
If we were meant to eat meat, then we'd have sharp teeth, fangs, and a short digestive tract.

If we were designed to eat meat, we'd have long fangs, be able to run 50 mph, and we'd have sharp claws for catching prey.

And if God didnt want us to eat animals, why did he make them so darn tasty?!?!
 
SeaJay once bubbled...
Funny!

<snip>
I am not completely innocent yet, though... I did have a ham and cheese sandwich today. That's un-veg for two reasons... Cheese, which is simply fermented and coagulated milk (which I shouldn't be eating, really) and dead flesh of an animal known to wallow in it's own fecal matter.

<snip>

:D

As an ex keeper of pigs, I have to defend this incorrect comment. :D

Pigs will not lie in their own fecal matter, in fact they will use the area furthest away from their bed area for a "toilet area"

I think it's fair to say that they are probably the cleanest "food" animal in that respect.

Other than that great thread folks, very informative. I shall treat my digestive tract with more respect now thanks to Cat.:)

And yes I did used to eat them before anyone asks, at least I know what went into them (therefore into me) and they lived with the sun on their backs unlike most mass produced pork.

Hoppy
:)
 
Mo2vation once bubbled...
Really Kool. I don't know much about the guy... do you have any interesting Kool-Aid man trivia you'd like to share with the group....?

Ken
...you found it! I just stole it...hehe. That is a sweet avatar BTW...

...and once again I am reminded why I have a crush on Cat... :tease:
 
If we were meant to eat meat, then we'd have sharp teeth, fangs, and a short digestive tract.

Instead, our teeth have an equal number of nibbling and grinding teeth, similar to that of other primates who sustain on twigs, berries, and leaves. And our digestive tracts (an average of 28 feet in length for a full-grown adult human) hint that we are designed to be mostly, if not completely, herbovoric (vegetarian).

If we were designed to eat meat, we'd have long fangs, be able to run 50 mph, and we'd have sharp claws for catching prey.

But we don't.

Me thinks you need to talk to some real physicians SeaJay, rather than religious zealots, er, DIR 'diving experts'. :)

Our digestive tract is of a medium length. It is not very short, as are those of dogs, for example, which are designed to live almost exclusively on animal protein. It is also not very long, as is a cow or horse's, which are designed to live almost exclusively on vegetative material.

We have a vestigal appendix, which speaks to a significant amount of our diet coming from animal protein, as that organ's original purpose was clearly to assist in the digestion of vegetative matter.

Our teeth are combinatorial. We have incisors, intended to rip and tear animal flesh - not necessary to grind plant matter. We also have molars, intended to grind plant matter, and of no use in ripping animal flesh.

If you want to stop the "surge and drag" routine, stop tampering with your blood sugar! That's what is causing it.

How do you do that, keep your BMI in a healthy range, and avoid diabetes and such at the same time?

Here 'ya go:

1. Animal protein needs to make up a significant part of your diet. Perhaps 30% or so. Eggs, cheese, meat, chicken, and cold-water fish in particular. Note that all of these have some animal fats in them - they're perfectly ok to eat. We're DESIGNED to eat this stuff!

2. Stay away from high glycemic vegetables and starches in particular. That would include potatoes among the worst of the sinners. (Yes, this includes french fries :) ) Pastas and such are SPARING, if at all (same reason.) If you want bread, eat only whole-wheat (NOT "wheat bread" from the store - WHOLE wheat.) Consider refined flour and what contains it junk food.

3. In addition, eat NO "artificial fats" (margarines, etc); nothing hydrogenated. This will be difficult; if you want "butter", eat BUTTER! The reason is that the "artificial" fats - the hydrogenated ones - are of questionable bioavailability without causing problems with your bad/good chloresterol balance, etc.

4. Finally, no refined sugar. At all.

The balance of your diet is vegetables, fruits and nuts.

Do that and you'll find that the "swings" go away. You'll also be eating pretty close to the balance that our digestive system was designed for, and avoiding "engineered" foods that our digestive system couldn't have been designed for (since they are not naturally-occurring!)

A vegetarian diet gets rid of the blood sugar swings, but also removes an important source of fats (and fats ARE NOT evil - they are a perfectly legitimate energy source and, absent easy-availability glucose sources such as refined sugar, cause no trouble), chloresterol (necessary for life - what the "low cholesterol" zealots don't tell you), proteins and omega-3 fatty acids, which are simply unavailable from most foods other than coldwater fish.

You'll also enjoy maintaining this diet and won't have to play the "health food store" games, along with their prices.

If you doubt this approach before you start have your blood worked up, eat this way for six to eight weeks, then have your blood worked up again. If you don't like the triglyceride and LDL/HDL changes, along with your blood sugar stability, following this for six weeks I'll be shocked.

Been there, done that, have the T-shirt and am missing 20 lbs (happily) as a consequence.
 
Cave Diver once bubbled...


And if God didnt want us to eat animals, why did he make them so darn tasty?!?!

Or given us the means to cook them up.

Cat, as always you have WOWed me. Great bit of information and not at all boring.

With all do respect the SJ, everyone must keep healthy eatting in context. God did give me (humans) long nails and some canine teeth for tearing into meat but he also made me (humans) on the intellectual level that allows me to prepare my food in an nonanimalistic way and gave me the ability to not have to chase my food down in a field without a gun/bow/credit card/ checkbook. :wink:

I will support individuals for their own personal preferences, you of all people know that, but don't forget to stay healthy and eat right. When you cut out too much of what you relied on for certain vitamins and proteins for the majority of your life, you must remember to replenish the supply. You can't even cut out bad things without your body going WOOW. Just remember to take care of yourself and keep educating yourself. R

And Cat stay close to keep it on tract. :D
 
I think we finally found a subject on which we can agree with Genesis. Somebody should also point out the position of our eyes on our heads to Mr. Jay. Hunters have forward looking eyes, cows, etc... do not.

By the way, as I first stated I'm not a DIR guy, I just went there for the gas, and ended up hanging out with a great bunch of divers.
 
Plants are what FOOD eats.

Chica- DIR diver and carnivore
 
Cave Diver once bubbled...


And if God didnt want us to eat animals, why did he make them so darn tasty?!?!

Heheheee... Funny.

What you're sensing there, when you crave meat (and enjoy the pleasurable sensations when you consume) isn't a positive thing. It's your body craving more of what causes those chemical reactions which bring you pleasure. It's got nothing to do with what's good and healthy for your body.

Similarly, if God didn't want us to smoke dope, then why did he make it so darn fun?

Okay, maybe that analogy is pretty harsh.

If God didn't want us to smoke tobacco, then why did he make it so darn addictive?

Still too harsh? Okay...

If God didn't want us to be fat, then why do we crave fats and sugars only?

What your body craves isn't "what's good" for it... What your body craves is whatever you've been feeding it... Whatever you're addicted to... And yes, that can be fat or meat or dairy... Or tobacco or cocaine.

I love tobacco. I love it so much that I seriously considered continuing to use it and sacrifice my whole standard of living just so that I could continue using tobacco. Similarly, I've seen people literally on the edge of death from tobacco use light up and continue, unable to stop. Of course, now that I've given it up, I do not miss the stuff. I do not crave. I do not care if someone else uses tobacco, and I am not running around trying to figure out how to supress my next "fix." I simply don't crave the stuff any longer. Sure, it took a while before I felt that way, but now I do NOT feel cheated or like I'm "missing" something. In fact, I feel quite the opposite... I feel like I've gained my freedom from it. I will not be the abusive "reformed smoker" and beat up on other smokers... I couldn't stand that when I was a smoker, and I won't stand for it now... But I feel I'm much better off today than I was as a smoker, and encourage others to take the same path.

In a much smaller and less threatening way, I encourage people to NOT simply listen to every crave their body tells them, and instead do some research on what's good for them. Research what is accepted as the "right" meal, by those who know. Learn what the correct proportions are. If you feel that meat and dairy should be avoided completely, then make that committment to yourself and do it. You'll be floored to find that not only do you not miss animal product, but that you feel that you've gained something by cutting those things out.

Personally, my research on this subject (not unlike the research I did on DIR) has shown me that animal products of whatever kind... Eggs, meat, dairy... Can be consumed in small quantity, but that our bodies aren't designed to carry the high loads of animal product and sugar that we feed it in our culture. Common sense tells us that all of the dietary-affected diseases (high cholesterol, obesity, diabetes, heart disease) have not always been such a big killer in humans... Else we would have developed by now a natural resistance to these diseases. Thus, I invite you to question your diet... In fact, question how we as Americans eat on a regular basis. Compare and contrast our dietary habits with those of other societies. I suspect that you will find what I did... That in societies where the consumption of animal products are reduced, the general state of health is improved, even with a lowered standard of health care. Ditto for fatty foods and foods high in sugar and acids.

...But don't believe me for it... Do your own research. Find out for yourself. Then make the committments that you want to make and stick by them. You'll be surprised to find that you AREN'T "giving up" things, but rather, gaining health, happiness, and the freedom from those products which we currently consume in such quantities as to be addictive.

Sure... At first, I wasn't excited about the concept of not eating an omlette for breakfast, and instead eating (gasp!) raw broccoli. And about once a month, I still allow myself to have a three-egg cheese omlette. But there's a huge difference in the way I feel after the consumption of one of those, vs. the broccoli... And it's not a positive one. Today, I crave the broccoli, even if that sounds bizarre to you. I no longer look at a steak and think, "mouth watering," I look at a steak and see it for what it really is... The sliced and burned ass of a (flatulent) animal. Sure, I still allow myself to have a bit now and then... But that's on it's way out. I'm simply not much of a fan of the stuff any longer... Just like I'm no longer much of a fan of tobacco.

Make your own decision, you guys. I did. I did about DIR, only after I'd experienced it and read about it and tried it and seen it with my own eyes. Once I established that it was a better way (which took a while for me) then I had to establish that I would be willing to do the "tough stuff" to be DIR... I had to convince myself that I could do it, I had to convince myself that I was willing to do it, and I had to convince myself that it would be worth doing. That took a while, and included a lot of self-evaluation and thought which I believe is the real reason why people are so much against DIR. They don't want to have to go through this apparently painful process of self-evaluation and the "reality check" that it includes, and so they simply stand on the sidelines and protest, rather than check it out for themselves. I believe it's borne of fear as to what they might find.

Once I was willing to make that committment to truly assess myself, I found that there were a lot of things that I didn't like about what I was seeing... And that was hard to take. The pinnacle of this was my 45-minute "stare into the water" at the quarry at DIR-F... Much more self-assessment was going on there than anyone will ever really know... And I wasn't liking what I was seeing. I could choose to ignore the truth, or I could discount it all and simply decide that none of this was "worth" a self-assessment. But if I wanted to improve, I needed an honest self-assessment... And if I needed an honest self-assessment, then I needed to listen to the truth... And if I needed to listen to the truth, it was going to hurt, 'cause it wasn't good.

Walking away from that dock and back up to MHK and Andrew, I only could think of one thing, and I said it aloud... "Courage is not the absence of fear... Courage is persistence in the face of fear." I don't know where that came from... Call it an inspired thought, perhaps; I dunno... I sorta made it up on the spot after all that I'd mulled over in my mind. It was simply too applicable and overwhelming to ignore, and I said it aloud.

So I invite y'all to be courageous and do a radical self-assessment. If you truly believe that meat is good for you, then by all means, eat lots of meat. I'm not going to try to convince you of one particular lifestyle. Instead, I invite you to have the guts to look at your life without blinders or rose-colored glasses on. Take a real, hard look. If you have questions about your diet, then spend the time and do some research. Figure out what "would be best for you if..." and then have the guts to decide that you're going to give yourself exactly that.

For me, I assessed that I wanted to dive like these guys. I wanted their skills and their abilities. I wanted to be a better diver. Did I "go DIR?" Well, I suppose I did, but it had nothing to do with the doctorines or ideals or the "Kool-Aid." It had to do with the fact that I was looking for better skills, and a better style of diving, 'cause I could see the shortcomings in what I'd been taught so far. When I honestly assessed this style of diving, I found it more desireable that the "standard" way. It took me about three weeks to decide that I'd give those skills to myself. At that moment, I suppose it can be said that I "went DIR." I don't care what you label it... I simply want to dive better. And my mind is still open to all. If someone can show me a better way, then I will listen... Just as I did with GUE.

...But that's not all that happened to me when I "went DIR." I found out that I could do anything I asked myself to do. I found out that I really was capable of giving myself the "good stuff." Suddenly, I began to question... "Then why do I smoke? I KNOW it's no good for me! If I can simply decide to be DIR, then why don't I simply decide to give up smoking?" Of course, it was spurred by GUE's intolerance toward tobacco, and it helped that someone said to me, "If you wanna improve yourself through us, you need to give up what is doing you harm." Then it was, "Wow, I can do this... I have done this... I'm also going to choose a better diet... A better major... A higher standard..."

So what's the bottom line? Well... No doubt I will be criticized by those people who have never had the pleasure of the "Holy smokes, I can" thought process for themselves. It doesn't matter to me, really. Am I promoting DIR? No. Am I promoting a vegan lifestyle? No. Am I promoting "no smoking?" No. But I will stand in the bleachers and cheer anyone on who makes a decision to courageously commit themselves to a difficult change. I could be an advocate for any of the things that I've listed, and certainly some of those groups of people will no doubt use my successes as examples to promote their ideals. However, I would simply like to promote what I personally found that day by the water... Courage. Have the courage to check "it" out for yourself, whatever "it" is. Does DIR seem important to you? Are you thinking about it a lot? Can't explain why? Have the courage to get out from behind your computer and check it out for yourself. Have the courage to try it. Have the courage to tell GUE to "screw off" if you don't like it. Just have the courage!

Have the courage to find out what your diet should be. Have the courage to address your bad habits. Have the courage to face those things that, deep down inside, really bother you. Research. Find out the truth. Then have the courage to face the truth and make the decision that you no longer want to live day to day, foolin' yourself into thinking that "it's okay."

For me, it meant turning away from being a "guy who dives" and turning into a "diver." For me, it also meant giving up tobacco use. It also meant a change in diet... In fact, I'm still changing my diet... Remember, doc said to "phase out," not "dump it altogether."

And "the big picture" is this... Whatever I've chosen to work on or change or do differently... I simply live my life now more "aligned" with what I feel is "right." My ideals are now much more closely related to what is reality than they were before. And that makes me a very happy person. Happy and healthy and fitter and energized and alkalized and very DIR.

...And I can understand how GI3 would be so passionate and uncompramising. I can relate.
 
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