A divers arrogance and ignorance

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

I thought the story I heard about 2 divers throwing their computers overboard on a line to "decompress" was crazy

Some divers use air computers as backup timers & depth gauges for trimix dives.

When the divers surface they drop them back down to decompres them so they won't lockout & be unuseable for the next dive.

Hopefully that is the context in which you heard that story.

 

[SoScuba]

We're not playing golf or bowling here. How the hell do these whackos get certified? ............

Anyone can play by the rules during certification. You cant control what a new diver does with that cert. I once read a post from an instructor who did his OW checkouts near a cave system. All students were well informed by the instructor as to the dangers of venturing into the caves without serious training and they stayed well clear of the caves during checkouts. The next weekend one of his newly certified students was diving the caves in full view of the instructor who was now with another class. Nothing he could do for him .....but pray!

Just a comment about ilumigeek's post above...#76...
Many a diver has perished because he thought his limitations were well beyond what the average persons limitations are. Anybodys physiology can change from day to day or time to time and just because you managed to successfully push the limits yesterday doesn't guarantee thet you will be able to do the same today. Yes I understand that some divers are much more experienced and practiced/skilled than others but the problem is when they start to think that the rules ...ie. physiological limitations, must not apply to them since they have gotten away with breaking those rules several times before. You say you have gone a little past 200 feet on air. Not necessarily the wisest practice these days but still within the Maximum Operating Depth (MOD) if you didnt pass 218 fsw. Beyond that, science says that you could go into what we call Oxtox and black out while suffering convulsions. Whos going to help Andre should he find himself in this situation? The inexperienced Moron at 250 feet whos probably narced out of his skull ! Not likely. How about the DM whos at the surface trying to drop bottles of air (or O2 as the story states) 250 feet away who has just completed a relatively deep dive. Again, not likely!
So, was Andre herioc? Well according to the definition of the word...yes he was. Was he stupid? Maybe not if he had nobody on land that would miss him or cared deeply for him and would be scarred for life on the event of his death. However this I doubt. So in my opinion, based on the info and story, Andre was a lucky,stupid, hero!
Lets hope he never does it again!

 

[armyscuba]

I've only been in the sport about a year and I've already seen and heard some really crazy things going on. Actually some of this stuff is hard to believe. We're not playing golf or bowling here. How the hell do these whackos get certified? I thought the story I heard about 2 divers throwing their computers overboard on a line to "decompress" was crazy, but diving to 200 fsw just to see what it's like? Scary stuff............

Well that's OK as long as You throw Yourself overboard with it..It's a new technique :death2:

 

[mars2u]

I'm not going to get into the discussion of whether this was a stupid or heroic thing. I know the man and think he did a commendable thing albeit I would never attempt it myself because I DON'T know what my limitations would be.
But we could go off on tangents discussing the mental stability for attempting the world record for diving on a single breath...over 525 feet if memory serves me correctly.

Anywho...for those that care, Andre is no longer on the Big Blue, he moved to Yap and is working for Yap Divers and the Manta Ray Bay hotel. If you see him, say "Hi" and check out his Vytec. I have to admit he's one of the nicest DM's you'll ever have the pleasure of meeting as were the rest of the Big Blue crew.

 

[illumiGeek]

The general consensus seems to be that Andre should have let this guy die because he was stupid. I can tell you from experience that a lot of people lifeguards rescue are dumb @$$e$ that don't follow the rules, ignore warnings, and generally behave in stupid and unsafe ways that get them into trouble. Do these people deserve to get rescued? I guess not. Wish I had known that back then; would have made my job a whole lot easier.

I also know a few EMTs, and I hear they have to rescue and treat a lot of dumb @$$e$ as well (especially around the holidays).

Anyway... not really intended as a flame; just a different perspective, and some food for thought.

Aloha, iG

 

[illumiGeek]

SoScuba,

Point taken. I never meant to suggest that diving to 200' on air was entirely safe, and I certainly don't recommend it for the typical recreational diver (it's quite boring down there anyway - all the pretty stuff is a lot higher up). The group I was involved with were all very physically fit, experienced divers and we had a good support team.

Was it a bit excessive or extreme. Certainly. Was it dangerous? There is an element of danger in most extreme situations. I'd like to think that our planning and rules kept that to an acceptable minimum. Was it necessary? Of course not. So why did we do it?

We wanted to see what was down there, of course... (JUST KIDDING!)

It's hard to explain. Why do people jump out of airplanes with a sack of cloth on their backs, or run with the bulls? Some of that stuff seems crazy to me, and a lot of them would think that diving (even within safe limits) is crazy as well. People often do things just to experience it. And yes, some do it without proper planning, knowledge or safety precautions and get injured or die.

For us it was a learning experience. The ultimate goal was to reach 200' (the limit of the dive tables at the time - no such things as dive computers back then). We approached this goal incrementally and had a lot of rules in place to keep things safe (only a few of which were discussed in my previous post). And some of us learned that we didn't want to go there. I was one of the three that ultimately hit the 200' mark (206' I believe was the deepest). Did it twice (3 times if you count one earlier dive that was just a few feet shy). Never did it again. Never really wanted to. And if you said you'd give me a hundred bucks to do it again tomorrow I would laugh at you. I'm more than 20 years older and 50 pounds heavier. Not the kind of shape I'd push the limits in. Heck, back then I could free dive to over half that. Nowaydays I'd have trouble reaching 50 feet (I can still do 40 though).

So was Andre a stupid, lucky hero? I suppose that's true in a lot of rescue situations, so I can live with that. Did the stupid, looser, drug dealer deserve to get rescued? Even Andre expressed regret after learning the guy was a drug dealer. Knowing the guy was a drug dealer, I don't think anyone here would lift a finger to help (I might even have been tempted to drop my weight belt on his head to keep him down there ).

I've swam through dangerous surf and rips to rescue struggling swimmers many times, only have them get mad at me for making them look bad in front of their friends. [sigh] But what are you gonna do. (And what do you do the next time you see them out there in trouble...?)

Aloha, iG

 

[getwet2]

What an A_____E but sounds like there was some great visibility!

 

[Tao of the Dive]

I think at its deepest cruxt of the discussion, we are discussing what 'you' would personallly do to prevent such an incident, given your level of training, experince, and confidence in those abilities. Some things aren't about heroism, somethings aren't about stupidity, they are about what can you allow to happen by simply standing by and allowing it to happen, or can you take action to try and stop a mishap.

When it al boils down to it, we have to ask ourselves, can I live with that man/womans death, or will it haunt me forever. Later on, somebody wil beat the **** out of the topic and over analyze whatever choices we made to accomplish that which we felt we could personally and morally justify. Nature of the beast. Nature of humanity apparently.

But I think it's fair to those that choose not to do it to say that they know their limits, and arent willing to risk all that they have. And to me, it's also fair to those who do accept the risk, to say, they are a credit to their humanity.

 

[BigJetDriver]

Taking excessive risks in a rescue attempt isn't heroic and may in fact complicate the situation, divide resources and put the victem and others at additional risk!

A while back there was a local dive team member who was out on the town on a Saturday with his yong son in the car when a call came on the radio. Two people had fallen through the ice on a local pond. The officer responded and without waiting for other team members entered the water alone and without lines under the ice. He received a medal. I would have fired him without hesitation. The people under the ice had very little chance of survival and in fact didn't survive. IMO, his actions more closely resembled those of a panic stricken amateur than a trained pro. The risk was great and in fact fool hardy and the benifit was nonexistant.

In this case the DM pulled it off. The DM made a decision in what I'm sure was a short amount of time and it worked out. I still think I would have done it different even though it might not have worked out as well for some.

Folks,

I took the liberty of emphasising Mike's first comment. I teach PSD instructors for IANTD. One of the things we talk about is "Risk / Benefit Analysis".

The situation is that we HAVE a victim or victims. The question is: "Can we attempt a retrieval without great risk of adding ourselves to the number of victims column?" We HAVE bodies! Do we need MORE bodies?

We know what our instant urge is. We wouldn't be doing this job if we were disinterested. We want to throw ourselves into the situation and DO something! The problem is that too often, that something turns out, tragically, to be the wrong thing.

In both of these stories, the one about the DM and the one that Mike presented, the responder did survive without incident. Far too often, this is not the way it comes out!

The proefssional question is this: "Based upon the situation, and the way I have been trained, is it smart to enter this situation immediately, or should I assemble the team?"

Note that I am in no way criticizing the DM, Andre, for making his personal decision. From the story, his own comments after the dive reflect his own criticism of his actions.

As for the diver in Mike's story, he would have been in for some heavy retraining in "Decision Making 101" at the very least.

While it may sound cold at first consideration, the simple truth is that it has been proven over and over again that the PROFESSIONAL response is always the BETTER response.

 

[snturner]

So what's the deepest dive you have done?