A deceptively easy way to die

[archer1960]

Lots of comments here about not recognizing the dangers, and as a relatively new diver rapidly gaining experience, I can guarantee that they don't. On my first few certified dives, I was very much in the situation of "not knowing what I didn't know". Nothing bad happened, and I think I would have handled it successfully if it did, but I see now that I was far too complacent about the dives. Now as I'm gearing up, I always mentally review what I would do in various situations that might come up, and if I'm not sure (such as when in a new area), make sure to ask the others in the group about it. (And yet I still occasionally start wading out from shore without my fins! ;-))

 

[widget]

I can only conclude my OW instructor was a practitioner of that school of marketing. He did relish the role.

How do you know what they recognized, maybe they just trusted the pro? No go without the pro, right? Seems like a dissonant theme in this thread, not without obvious irony.


Something said? It's not the subject matter straw man, it's the delivery. As to the one-sided nature of responses to alarming experience, and there being only upside to harping on danger - that seems just too... sweet. I can't see that blowing risks out of proportion - a common enough past-time here on SB - is part of effective instruction. Is it common in other fields to try to rattle fledglings?

Well, I don't read Italian, and much of that video was within sight of daylight, or in a group with lots of redundant lights and air, or under an air pocket. Hard to tell just how dangerous it was, or is all overhead bad, absent a cert?

I haven't kept a careful tally, but I'm sure you're not even within sight of 0.1% yet, and your examples strongly suggest a confounding factor.

I have to say I am in full agreement with you. I see no reason to scare little Johnny and Mom in the front row of a basic scuba course.

Its been a few years since I took an Openwater 1 class, but I have taught my share and have always believed in and actively promoted the safe, fun, family side of sport diving. Because this is what we are teaching in basic classes - SPORT DIVING.

There is a place for video's like this, but in my opinion its far down the instruction line, on more advanced courses, or possibly only on specialist cave diving courses where I think it could be useful as a tool, but for new divers or students undergoing a basic course, I only see it as a negative.

When I was still actively instructing the standards were clear, you stressed to the students that this was a course which qualified them to dive under the conditions they were trained (ie) openwater where they had direct access to the surface. Never have I seen any standards which suggest its a good idea to show video's like this to re-enforce this standard.

Scaring the life out of the students and new divers on the off chance they "may" venture into a cave or overhead environment, makes no sense to me.

Lets not forget these students were most likely recruited as a direct result of promoting diving as a safe, fun, family activity, in my mind, showing these video's cancels all those positives.

 

[oya]

Scaring the life out of the students and new divers on the off chance they "may" venture into a cave or overhead environment, makes no sense to me.

So much about the previous post aggravates me, but I'll focus on this line.

On the off-chance that a diver deviates from the standards of super-safe, no one ever gets hurt, sport diving... they put their heads just inside a cave (or wreck, or coral overhang, or bit more depth that they're trained for) they can die.

You have signed waivers over and over and over, if you have taught you have had people sign waivers that read: "Diving is inherently dangerous."

This video is a graphic depiction of that and ALL divers would do well to remember it.

An earlier poster pointed out, "Diving CAN be safe." Provided you always remember it IS dangerous.

I would argue this video can scare life into them, not out.

 

[IVC]

When I was still actively instructing the standards were clear, you stressed to the students that this was a course which qualified them to dive under the conditions they were trained (ie) openwater where they had direct access to the surface.

The problem is to define "under the similar conditions" when pitfalls are not obvious and where common sense *outside the water* is significantly different from what happens *inside the water.*

I'd compare it to, e.g., breathing pure oxygen. Someone who has done it at an "oxygen bar" might have this great idea to breathe pure oxygen under water. It's safe and available on the surface, so how bad can it be in the water, right? Venturing into caves is similar since "common sense" above water is to look around, peek in, go as far as it's lit, look at the walls and passages, then go back and continue your day. There is nothing that conditions a regular person to any particular danger of wandering into a cave on a hike, so giving *specific reasons* why it's so dangerous under water is a pretty good idea.

Besides, statistics clearly show that "do not enter caves under water because it's common sense" doesn't work. Even with warning signs people still do it. To them, it's just a cave, no different than a cave at the surface. Those pesky signs must be there just for liability reasons.

 

[kelemvor]

A propos the claims that "most adults would see the danger instantly" and that "99.9% of them would never consider [it]":

Here is the site list of a diving center in Palinuro, Italy. Note that 11 of the 14 sites that the operator doesn't require a cavern or cave cert to dive are overhead.

Here's a video that another dive center in the general area (Salerno) has posted on YouTube. Incidentally, this is video is shot in the same cave where, as NWGratefuldiver and I pointed out, four divers perished three years ago.
[video=youtube;flgDQiSALNU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flgDQiSALNU[/video]

Frankly, this kind of crap scares the living bejeebus out of me. But it seems that the dive centers in the region think nothing of it.

You can dive in the "ballroom" cavern at Ginnie Springs in Florida, USA with just an OW card as well. In fact, it was my very first dive after getting OW certified.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Is it common in other fields to try to rattle fledglings?

When I got my Private Pilot's license, it was made clear by both my instructors and by the check pilot/designated examiner that it was a "license to learn" and that exceeding my training, experience or skill level was a good way to get dead.

Same with my instrument rating - I was a very capable instrument pilot, but I was carefully cautioned on the limits of the ticket and the realities that flying into things like embedded thunderstorms and severe icing, or doing stupid stuff like cutting your fuel reserves short or picking an unrealistic alternate airport when the conditions were near minimums were all things that will still kill you deader than hell, IFR ticket or not.

You'll find similar warnings in skydiving, paragliding, hang gliding, ultralight flying, or any other sport that is serious about self policing itself to avoid having the government step in with greater limitations and regulations.

 

[Bubble_blower87]

Regarding people talking about instructors taking non qualified divers into caverns. I spoke with Edd Sorensen two day sago and he explained as a cave instructor he CAN take an OW diver into a cavern (one step above their qualification). He also advised me not to listen to the many rec divers who say oh you need 100s of dives before you even THINK of diving caverns or caves. Most rec divers who haven't been thinking technically minded develop bad skills and do not have proper trim. He advised me if I really want to cave dive, come as soon as I am eligible for the cavern/sidemount course. He would then teach me the proper way to do things making it harder to break habits later. After getting the cavern dive and my sidemount certifications, work on those skills for a while and continue on. This is coming from one of the most respected people and instructors in the field (from what I hear).

 

[pedro_rj]

I have to say I am in full agreement with you. I see no reason to scare little Johnny and Mom in the front row of a basic scuba course.

Its been a few years since I took an Openwater 1 class, but I have taught my share and have always believed in and actively promoted the safe, fun, family side of sport diving. Because this is what we are teaching in basic classes - SPORT DIVING.

There is a place for video's like this, but in my opinion its far down the instruction line, on more advanced courses, or possibly only on specialist cave diving courses where I think it could be useful as a tool, but for new divers or students undergoing a basic course, I only see it as a negative.

When I was still actively instructing the standards were clear, you stressed to the students that this was a course which qualified them to dive under the conditions they were trained (ie) openwater where they had direct access to the surface. Never have I seen any standards which suggest its a good idea to show video's like this to re-enforce this standard.

Scaring the life out of the students and new divers on the off chance they "may" venture into a cave or overhead environment, makes no sense to me.

Lets not forget these students were most likely recruited as a direct result of promoting diving as a safe, fun, family activity, in my mind, showing these video's cancels all those positives.

I get what is being said about low standards regarding safety, but I think most people only see two options:

1) you scare the s*** out of beginners and that will make them dive properly
2) people will behave like fearless, mindless fools and get themselves killed

From what I've read so far, I still don't get the NEED to be so gloomy upfront. Isn't it possible to teach people to dive safely without showing them a video of a diver dying in a horrible manner?

Someone mentioned several posts ago about teaching a kid how to cross the street. Do you show your kids a video of other kids being run over and dismembered by big trucks to accomplish that?


Again, I do agree safety is not being emphasized enough. After only ~100 dives I already realize my initial training was rather insufficient, so to speak.
I just don't see any way in which watching this video would have helped - actually, quite on the contrary. Some people who did OW with me were already pretty nervous and would probably have had a breakdown after thinking "I'm about to die a horrible death". Today they still dive and as far as I know not one is even considering going into caves.

 

[dshorwich]

From what I've read so far, I still don't get the NEED to be so gloomy upfront. Isn't it possible to teach people to dive safely without showing them a video of a diver dying in a horrible manner?

Someone mentioned several posts ago about teaching a kid how to cross the street. Do you show your kids a video of other kids being run over and dismembered by big trucks to accomplish that?

I recall that when I took a Driver Ed course at age 16, we were shown a fairly graphic film to illustrate the risks of drunk driving.

 

[TMHeimer]

Regarding the recurring theme of whether a "scare" video like this should be in Basic: I think so. Because it may save some lives. Some lives of those who exhibit no fear of danger or warnings of danger. You're told not to enter overhead environments in OW course--until trained. I would never do it. No interest anyway, but because of the warning I read in OW 10 years ago, and because I'm leary of going anywhere underwater that looks the least bit scary (or I should say looks like not what I really want to get into). Some people aren't like that and need this video. Who cares if it scares a few away from taking OW course? Scuba itself without caves can be very dangerous if you screw up and panic-- potential divers who don't feel that way definitely should be scared away by the video. I agree an excellent video for the OW class.