coberry7 once bubbled...
But what if the problem is hidden from the intructor for some reason? Or if the problem and discomfort manifests itself after initial certification
Good point. We can read people pretty well, as instructors. But sometimes we are unaware of things (like a students discomfort) unless it is brought to our attention.
Sometimes a student is quite comfortable during training, then once they are out there without the instructor, they are less confident.
I do however feel that someone should be proficient with ascents prior to certification. Sounds like perhaps a little more supervised training would help in that department.
Qmed,
I agree that OW is just the beginning, but perhaps a better way to put it is "a licence to safely learn" . Certifying a diver who has trouble controlling rapid ascents could indeed be labeled "Gross Neglegence". That may not be the case here, granted, but scubajunkie's description raises that question. With good training, and 26 dives under the weightbelt, still having trouble with ascents, you gotta agree that maybe some pro help would be beneficial.
I am in total agreement with your statement "Now, too often are instructors critisized for what amounts to "new diver delemas". This solves nothing other than to "assign blame" for ANY issue. "
So let's not "blame" the new diver either. This is equally unproductive. It's great that they are asking questions, lets not scare em off. I am confident that you did not mean it that way, but reading your post, It's easy to get that impression.
Scubajunkie,
You are asking good questions. I hope some of the responses are helping. Does the depth of the dive affect your comfort level? Perhaps some shallow dives, or even pool dives would help gain confidence. You may consider talking with your instructor about this. Maybe you could do some practice in the pool during the next class. Perhaps even accompany the next class during the open water dives. I know for me, at first, I felt much better with my instructor on the dive.
Best of luck,
Andrew
A couple things... fear... and fumbling
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Good point there. What if the student becomes uncomfortable after certification? It's possible I know. Especially for the first time out without supervision. That makes perfect sense. My question is why there's still discomfort on the 26th dive. It just doesn't seem like the instructor saw Scuba_junkie completely comfortable before certification. It is good to see the problem solving underwater though, that shows that Scuba_junkie was comfortable enough to calm himself down to make a rational choice. I do agree that since it's on number 27 now and you still aren't very comfortable, maybe you should do some guided dives for a little while with a divemaster until you are perfectly comfortable down there.
I do agree that since it's on number 27 now and you still aren't very comfortable, maybe you should do some guided dives for a little while with a divemaster until you are perfectly comfortable down there.Nature Diver, if these problems should have been overcome during OWT, than why are they still an issue for a diver doing their 20 something dive??
Nature Diver, if you were talking about a student who still couldn't clear their mask at dive 24, I'd be on board with you. That is a skill which must be mastered during training. Fear of enough air being delivered is not a skill that is evaluated, except through direct observation. That observation is of the diver's comfort level. And even so, the diver can look like Fonzie underwater, but still be scared, and therefore not noticeable to the instructor. In that case it is the student's responsibility to say that they are having difficulty.
At 26 dives the original instructor cannot be responsible for discomfort of this sort. External help and guidance in a 'real diving' scenario should be sought by the diver, to determine the problem, and identify the solution, as well as eliminating the possibilities of bad air, etc.
Obviously, unless ScubaJunkie was experiencing these problems during OW certification, and notified the instructor of their fears, (because these fears were not physically manifest..) it cannot be the original instructor's fault that these issues are manifest now.
ScubaJunkie, Good luck! from your posts it sounds like you are doing the right thing when confronted with an underwater difficulty. It seems that we disagree as pro's on various training issues but all agree that you are doing the right thing with your situation.
Feel free to PM me if you continue to have difficulty.
Nature Diver, if you were talking about a student who still couldn't clear their mask at dive 24, I'd be on board with you. That is a skill which must be mastered during training. Fear of enough air being delivered is not a skill that is evaluated, except through direct observation. That observation is of the diver's comfort level. And even so, the diver can look like Fonzie underwater, but still be scared, and therefore not noticeable to the instructor. In that case it is the student's responsibility to say that they are having difficulty.
At 26 dives the original instructor cannot be responsible for discomfort of this sort. External help and guidance in a 'real diving' scenario should be sought by the diver, to determine the problem, and identify the solution, as well as eliminating the possibilities of bad air, etc.
Obviously, unless ScubaJunkie was experiencing these problems during OW certification, and notified the instructor of their fears, (because these fears were not physically manifest..) it cannot be the original instructor's fault that these issues are manifest now.
ScubaJunkie, Good luck! from your posts it sounds like you are doing the right thing when confronted with an underwater difficulty. It seems that we disagree as pro's on various training issues but all agree that you are doing the right thing with your situation.
Feel free to PM me if you continue to have difficulty.
What you say here supports exactly what I'm saying. If that should have been overcome then why is it still an issue? That's my question precisely. It is true that the instructor can't catch every little thing and it is the responsiblity of the diver to let the instructor know of any problems. I am a new instructor so I don't know everything about this yet. This was just my observation from what I've done so far in the diving industry.
It could all be in your head but there are a few other alternatives. Big props for thinking your head back on straight by the way!
Could be the reg. A reg thats hard to breath bites. I did a quick reg swap at depth with a friend who was having problems similar to what you described. Turns out the rental reg. she was using was horrible. The harder your body has to work to breath, the more CO2 it will tolerate. CO2 narcosis is nasty stuff.
Got a sinking feeling? Next time you start getting a little edgy at depth check in with your legs and see what theyre doing. If theyre moving youre probably not neutral and you could be working harder than you think. Toss in a hard breathing reg and youve got a nice little cycle of stress. We were a little past 100 when my wife signaled she was getting stressed and wanted to go up. I signaled ok but at the same time noticed she was almost vertical and kicking (should have caught that sooner). I reached over and put a puff of air in her wings and within seconds she was fine. We headed back up any way but happily, not stressed.
Bad gas? Could be the gas on your back is bad. This ones not likely but its also not impossible. How does your air taste? Are your dive buddies having similar experiences? When was the shops air last tested? I maintain the compressor for our local dive team and it takes quite a bit of tlc.
Since it sounds like youve got a pretty good handle on your head; these are just a few other things you might want to look into.
Good luck,
Dave
Could be the reg. A reg thats hard to breath bites. I did a quick reg swap at depth with a friend who was having problems similar to what you described. Turns out the rental reg. she was using was horrible. The harder your body has to work to breath, the more CO2 it will tolerate. CO2 narcosis is nasty stuff.
Got a sinking feeling? Next time you start getting a little edgy at depth check in with your legs and see what theyre doing. If theyre moving youre probably not neutral and you could be working harder than you think. Toss in a hard breathing reg and youve got a nice little cycle of stress. We were a little past 100 when my wife signaled she was getting stressed and wanted to go up. I signaled ok but at the same time noticed she was almost vertical and kicking (should have caught that sooner). I reached over and put a puff of air in her wings and within seconds she was fine. We headed back up any way but happily, not stressed.
Bad gas? Could be the gas on your back is bad. This ones not likely but its also not impossible. How does your air taste? Are your dive buddies having similar experiences? When was the shops air last tested? I maintain the compressor for our local dive team and it takes quite a bit of tlc.
Since it sounds like youve got a pretty good handle on your head; these are just a few other things you might want to look into.
Good luck,
Dave
Am just finishing my open water and ascent rates is definteley a hard thing to judge when new at it. Am keeping my ascents safe by making sure i bleed plenty of air as i rise, even gently kicking i can surface with next to no air in my jacket and then inflate it more again to keep me comfortable on the surface. This way am always in control and not feeling as if i am rushing up too fast and try to keep slightly below my instructor so i can watch and learn. Am heading for that 25 dives thing as soon as i am certified, is a good landmark to get to in my book to get you started off. Well done, will be joining you soon i hope.
OP
scuba_junkie
Guest
Just to clarify things about me a little... with regards to my comfort level and dive experience, the reason that I got freaked out was because I had never felt like that before in the water. I have been swimming and snorkelling since I was a kid and have never been afraid of the water (just with the sea-monsters that might come up from 100feet below and gobble me up...lol), but like anyone, still maintained the proper respect for it.
I have always wanted to learn SCUBA, so taking the OW classes was very exciting for me and was very comfortable through the whole process. To give you an example, the first time we had to do a mask removal and clear (in the shallow part of the pool), I tilted my head a little too far back, got some water up my nose, and started hacking and coughing through my regulator. Even though all I had to do was stand up to get back to the surface, I made my self stay under and work through the episode as if I had no other choice.
Through all of my dives up until the one I got spooked on, I had never felt uneasy at all. I have been deeper in the same sort of cold water climate (Niagara II in Tobermory - 80fsw+), and even did the exact same dive at Gilboa the previous day. I think the water temps where maybe a few degrees colder the day I got spooked. On the previous day we dive the tubes in the early afternoon (1-2:00PM), but on this day we dove at about 9-10:00AM).
I have also been comfortable with my skills and never had any trouble with easily picking them up (except for the whole 'smooth ascent' part... but I am working on that one). Overall, my personal comfort level on all previous dives was to the point that the whole process and activities involved in the pre-dive, dive, and post dive was very methodical to me and alsmost second nature. Dont get me wrong here, I never got over-confident with my skills to the point of being cocky with them. But everything that was taught to me in my OW classes made sense to me, I learned it, practiced it and applied during my dives. It was like memorizing a script to a play, and then acting it out as if you had been doing it your whole life. So to suddenly encounter this weird (panicky) feeling after being so comfortable on all my previous dives, just threw me for a loop. Being a very analytical peerson, now I just want to figure out what happend, get over the paranoia of it happening again (or at least teach myself what to do if it does), and keep on diving.
Hopefully I have shed some more light on this whole topic... even if it did require me to be a little too long winded .
Keep the good responses coming and thanks for all the input so far!
I have always wanted to learn SCUBA, so taking the OW classes was very exciting for me and was very comfortable through the whole process. To give you an example, the first time we had to do a mask removal and clear (in the shallow part of the pool), I tilted my head a little too far back, got some water up my nose, and started hacking and coughing through my regulator. Even though all I had to do was stand up to get back to the surface, I made my self stay under and work through the episode as if I had no other choice.
Through all of my dives up until the one I got spooked on, I had never felt uneasy at all. I have been deeper in the same sort of cold water climate (Niagara II in Tobermory - 80fsw+), and even did the exact same dive at Gilboa the previous day. I think the water temps where maybe a few degrees colder the day I got spooked. On the previous day we dive the tubes in the early afternoon (1-2:00PM), but on this day we dove at about 9-10:00AM).
I have also been comfortable with my skills and never had any trouble with easily picking them up (except for the whole 'smooth ascent' part... but I am working on that one). Overall, my personal comfort level on all previous dives was to the point that the whole process and activities involved in the pre-dive, dive, and post dive was very methodical to me and alsmost second nature. Dont get me wrong here, I never got over-confident with my skills to the point of being cocky with them. But everything that was taught to me in my OW classes made sense to me, I learned it, practiced it and applied during my dives. It was like memorizing a script to a play, and then acting it out as if you had been doing it your whole life. So to suddenly encounter this weird (panicky) feeling after being so comfortable on all my previous dives, just threw me for a loop. Being a very analytical peerson, now I just want to figure out what happend, get over the paranoia of it happening again (or at least teach myself what to do if it does), and keep on diving.
Hopefully I have shed some more light on this whole topic... even if it did require me to be a little too long winded
.Keep the good responses coming and thanks for all the input so far!
I still say the most likely problem was a CO2 hit.
If your regulator was not working right and/or your breathing pattern was off then you could get a CO2 buildup and that WILL make you "freak out".
The response to that feeling is to make yourself breath slower and deeper, even though your body wants to pant. Panting will make it worse.
If your regulator was not working right and/or your breathing pattern was off then you could get a CO2 buildup and that WILL make you "freak out".
The response to that feeling is to make yourself breath slower and deeper, even though your body wants to pant. Panting will make it worse.
ScubaJunkie, do you own your own equipment? Particulary your BCD and regulator?
OP
scuba_junkie
Guest
Yes I do... and everything was bought brand new from my LDS a little over a year ago. They are a 2002 model SeaQuest ProQD+ BC, and Atomic B1-T2 regs.
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