A Cert Card for everything, including how to tie your shoe...

[Nemrod]

I think you need a PadI spring strap card, maybe make it a specialty course, Spring Strap Specialty Course, counts towards PadI Master Diver rating. The student must provide proof they can get their fins on with spring straps, yeah, sounds good

N

 

[vjanelle]

Don't forget the requisite class, optional confined water sessions, and 2 dives.

 

[Darnold9999]

FWIW I see no difference in the generations ability, or motivation. What I do see is a much more sensitive BS meter than we had (as baby boomers). Less likely to accept "because I said so" as a sufficient reason to learn something.

Additionally the sheer amount of information that someone born today as opposed to 50 plus years ago has to sift through to acquire the things that they need to know is significant. Those without the skills to quickly narrow down their focus to the essentials fall by the wayside. ergo - tell me what I need to know now, to do what I want to do now and nothing more. If I need more I will come back and get it later. More of a bandwidth problem than anything.

Don't see anything wrong in lots of education "certifications". If someone thinks they need someone to tell them how to dive from a boat then it is nice that someone else will provide that service. If there wasn't a demand then their wouldn't be the service. I can't imagine anyone requiring a boat cert to dive from a boat, or a photo cert to dive with a camera. However there are certs that the lack of will restrict the diving that you can do - licenses as opposed to just education.

With respect to the certifications that I have found to be licenses - OW to get air - AOW to dive beyond 60 feet, Nitrox to get enriched air fills, Solo to allow you to dive from charters I have to say I think they all add value. I suspect Cave and Tech certifications also fall in this category of licenses as well but I have no personal experience.

While they add value it is not necessarily the same value, but some value. Solo being the one that most people see as unneccesary. While it does not necessarily teach you anything you didn't already know it does shift liability from the charter provider to the diver where it should be. Without the card any charter provider that lets a diver dive solo is probably assuming more risk than they really want. With all the major agencies pushing the buddy system as the only safe way to dive, to allow an "uncertified" diver to dive alone is just asking for a lawsuit if something goes wrong. The card just shifts that liability.

 

[Gilldiver]

Since 1979 I have these certs:

NAUI SCUBA Diver – Now called Open Water 1 1979
IANDI Nitrox 1993
NAUI Advanced Diver 1995
TDI Tri-Mix 1 2007

I got the Advanced after taking an instructor into the engine room of the USS Tarpon and getting him a gauge. He asked me what he could do to thank me, I asked if I had passed the advanced course. Boats were already starting the nanning that we see today.

I got my tri mix 12 years after doing my first mix dive, there were no tri-mix certs in 1995.

But in the past 31 years I have not got these certs:

Dry Suit
Deep Diving
Deep Air
Decompression Diving
Night Diving
Camera Diver
Doubles Diving
Wreck Diving
Archaeological Diver (But would pass for the NAS Level II maybe III if anyone did it in the North East US)
Gas Blender
Zippy-Do-Da Diving

 

[ianr33]

I don't have a problem with any courses that any of the agencies offer. If people want to do them,that's fine.

What I do have an issue with is when some of these courses start to be required. That's just a Power Grab by the agencies.

Part of the problem is it's not obvious which courses truly are required and which are not. An OW diver would be insane to do a 300 foot deep trimix cave dive, but they would probably survive a 70 foot reef dive without PBB.

My philosophy has always been to take the truly important courses (deco,cave) and pick up the other stuff (drysuit,sidemount) from mentors.

 

[randini]

I see it more as an approach used by the FAA in certifying pilots: you start with a basic single engine good visibility certification with strict altitude & weather condition limits. From there if so desired you move on into more adventurous conditions (I'm not a pilot and don't know the exact sequence but examples are), limited visibility (i.e. flying by instruments in fog or at night), multi-engine, flight instructor etc. In the end it gets more people a basic understanding and in the water within finacnial limitations time periods without the investment of making commercial divers out of everyone. Those that want to peruse more training are welcome to do so, those that don't are welcome not to and must understand when a charter won't let them dive a specific scenario. Other than that (when there's no one else to be held liable), you're on your own to do what you feel is within your limits. I don't want to see diving go to the extremes where flying is and end up needing "Unterwater traffic controllers", but I do understand the reasoning behind the training and "get" the model of current training programs (or at least I think I do).

Are there a ton of cert's I think are ridiculous, of course. Even in the so called ridiculous classes (i.e. underwater naturalist, imho), I'm sure there are those that have taken it and found the training useful when given by the right instructor under the right conditions. Would I recommend them to everybody, hell no. But before I, for example, try on a dry suit in OW (which I never have), I'm gonna make sure I find someone to explain to me how to use it, be it through a certification course or a mentor and try it on in a pool or at least in OW with said mentor/instructor, and after said training if I'm still uncomfortable, I'll find more training before actually going down to whatever depth in it on my own (read with my regular buddy). Following this example, if I want to use a drysuit, why should I need to learn the rest of the cave stuff or doubles or Nitrox, when all I want is to stay warmer in the cool Chilean water. I'll cross those other bridges a I get to them.

 

[dburg30]

Other have said it, but the reason for all the c-cards is.....


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

and even though it would seem to make sense that someone that jumps into the water with stuff strapped all over themselves with the intent to breath underwater, would understand that it could be dangerous, but thanks to lawyers, they saw a perfect thing to sue dive shops / boats / whatever attached to it when someone decided to try something with out 'training' and I'm guessing won, so they started coming up with all these c-card$ so they could say 'well they had the training and should have known better'.... It's a shame that something that basically says "what you are going to do could kill you, and you sign that you know that, and it's not my fault if it happens" and a signature isnt enough.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Other have said it, but the reason for all the c-cards is.....


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Actually, there's some truth to that ... all those C-cards do cost money.

But ...

and even though it would seem to make sense that someone that jumps into the water with stuff strapped all over themselves with the intent to breath underwater, would understand that it could be dangerous, but thanks to lawyers, they saw a perfect thing to sue dive shops / boats / whatever attached to it when someone decided to try something with out 'training' and I'm guessing won, so they started coming up with all these c-card$ so they could say 'well they had the training and should have known better'.... It's a shame that something that basically says "what you are going to do could kill you, and you sign that you know that, and it's not my fault if it happens" and a signature isnt enough.

Weeellllll ... not exactly.

These threads always boil down to the same thing ... "Back when I got certified 40 years ago we had to swim 12 miles and do 100 pushups wearing our scuba gear. You young punks got it too easy, and your training is inadequate." It's the same yearning for the good old days that happens in every human endeavor when old people get to the point where they can't remember how it really was back in the "good old days" ... so it must've been better.

I've dived with a lot of those old-timers, and yanno what ... they ain't all that. Most of them have bad habits I broke myself of after only a year or two of diving ... because I was smart enough to take a class and learn a better way.

Back in the old days you didn't take all those classes for one reason ... because they weren't available. You either learned from someone with more experience than you, or you learned the hard way. Sometimes you didn't get bent or injured in the process ... but a lot of the old-timers I know have been bent multiple times.

Diving mentality today is different ... diving's not the exclusive domain of adventuresome young men ... it's more the domain of well-to-do middle-aged people who have the means to participate in it. The claim that young people are the reason why classes are broken up into smaller chunks isn't borne out by the numbers ... there are probably more 50-somethings in diving than 20-somethings. Those people have jobs, families, and several other recreational pursuits. They don't want long, drawn-out classes ... they want to take it in smaller, easier to schedule bites. It works for them.

I get so tired of these threads that criticize everybody who isn't like you. Yanno what? If you're one of those people who's been diving for 40 years, and who has done it all with nothing more than a single OW card, you have my respect ... I wish I'd taken it up much younger in life. Now shut up and go diving ... and leave the rest of the diving community to pursue it in the way that best suits their lifestyle and goals.

Some folks LIKE taking classes. Others learn best by doing. Whichever works for you, do.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[dburg30]

Well, by default they cost money, but I still feel there are so many different ones because they make the industry cash. The agencies make the most, but others to make something off of them. I'm not saying they arent 'worth' it, but I just dont really buy the idea they offer them just to make better/safer divers. But again, it's my opinion.

Being in the power equipment business for a long time, it's the same with all the doo-dads on mowers and stuff because people werent smart enough to realize sticking your hands under them while running would cut your fingers off. But some lawyer WAS smart enough to 'defend' the Id10t since there wasnt anything that told them not to do it.

Hey, maybe I'm totally wrong and all the agencies care about are making the Best Divers Possible! not making money.

 

[Hammerhead]

Hi Superlyte,

Welcome to America. We refer to this as the "free market" of goods and services. The idea being that people are free to offer goods or services for sale, and other people are free to buy them, or not. This system allows entrepreneurs to test the market for new products and new ideas, and is the foundation of capitalism.

You are welcome to enjoy the fruits of this American system, or to go to some other country and stand in line all day for a sack of moldy government potatoes. Your call.

Yep Mike, the rest of the world really is like that. And to think that some misguided foreigners perceive Americans as being arrogant...