30 or 40 lb. lift on Halcyon Eclipse?

[El Orans]

I'm very happy with the 30# Eclipse wing (dive steel tanks, use a wetsuit in cold water).

 

[cool_hardware52]

I'm very happy with the 30# Eclipse wing (dive steel tanks, use a wetsuit in cold water).

Very few single tank divers need more than 30 lbs of lift. Very cold water, and / or very large divers will sometimes have so much neoprene, or such thick undergarments in a DS that 30 lbs is insufficient, but not very often.

In my experience much of the confusion regarding wing lift stems from incorrectly rated wings. I've tested wings that were supposed to provide ~30lbs, that in reality provided much less.

Testing actual lift is pretty easy. Weight the wing empty. Mount it up to the backplate with the actual tank to be used and fill it to capacity with water, chase out all the air bubbles. Remove the wing from the rig carefully (don't squeeze any water out the OPV) and weight it again. The difference in the empty weight vs the "full" weight is the lift.


Tobin

 

[rigdiver]

I compared the 30 and 40 lb wings side by side. There is so little difference I went with the 40. You just never know where your diving and equip. will lead you. If you could say always diving wet with an al tank, then sure the 30 would suffice. However, add big steels and a dry suit and then you'll need the 40. I'd get the 40 and be done with it.
Bill

 

[lamont]

I must say I find it curious that the recommendations are essentially "buy an oversized wing so you need not be careful in determining your weighting".

That's seems contrary to the essence of DIR

It is contrary to DIR. I prefaced my first response that it wasn't a DIR answer. I think its a more appropriate answer for someone with 20 dives though, since the chances that they'll mess up their weighting is much higher (most newer divers dive with too much weight, which also isn't DIR) and that if they get into trouble they may turn it into a fatal situation (rejecting the regulator and panicking on the surface).

And oversizing a singles wing by 10# is a much smaller sin than going with 120# double bladder wings.

 

[cool_hardware52]

It is contrary to DIR. I prefaced my first response that it wasn't a DIR answer. I think its a more appropriate answer for someone with 20 dives though, since the chances that they'll mess up their weighting is much higher (most newer divers dive with too much weight, which also isn't DIR) and that if they get into trouble they may turn it into a fatal situation (rejecting the regulator and panicking on the surface).

And oversizing a singles wing by 10# is a much smaller sin than going with 120# double bladder wings.

Lamont,

My standard advice to those either new to diving, and or new to BP&W is go to the pool!

Work through the problem, whatever it is. Lift, total weighting, trim etc. The lessons learned are worthwhile, and help to avoid other mistakes.

If you actually know, as result of actual tests, how much reserve lift you have, then you can make informed decisions regarding borrowed tanks, etc.

To suggest one simply oversize the wing seems a disservice.

Tobin

 

[lamont]

Lamont,

My standard advice to those either new to diving, and or new to BP&W is go to the pool!

Work through the problem, whatever it is. Lift, total weighting, trim etc. The lessons learned are worthwhile, and help to avoid other mistakes.

If you actually know, as result of actual tests, how much reserve lift you have, then you can make informed decisions regarding borrowed tanks, etc.

To suggest one simply oversize the wing seems a disservice.

Tobin

I don't disagree with you, and think that's great advice.

At the same time for stock advice to a newbie diver over the internet, where i don't know what kind of support the diver has, or what access to facilities they've got, i'm going to go with the 10# extra.

I think a newbie diver going with a 30# wing (in cold water, steel tanks, etc) needs to understand that they need to manage their weighting better and they need to be comfortable with emergency procedures if they find themselves overweighted. That is, in fact, the DIR way to do it, but over the internet I don't know anything other than the fact they've got 20 dives, so I'm assuming they're looking a pretty steep learning curve and likely to take a few bumps on the way up it...

YMMV.

 

[DiegoDiver]

I compared the 30 and 40 lb wings side by side. There is so little difference I went with the 40. You just never know where your diving and equip. will lead you. If you could say always diving wet with an al tank, then sure the 30 would suffice. However, add big steels and a dry suit and then you'll need the 40. I'd get the 40 and be done with it.
Bill

Although I am essentially a new diver (and new to DIR), I do consider myself intelligent enough to understand proper weighting concepts (to a degree-not trying to be cocky, just not clueless), and to hopefully not get myself into drastic trouble with overweighting. One can never exclude diving experience, however, which is why I posted the question here and got some great responses.

I just wasn't sure, in terms of drag and streamlining, if the wings were drastically different and would cause unnecessary drag issues. (contrary to DIR philosophy). Since the difference seems negligible, I think I am going with the 40lb. wing. Hopefully I don't get struck down by the DIR top brass. Like some have said, it just provides a little extra lift without causing additional issues, and seems to be a little more versatile based on different possible diving environments and equipment. I know that nothing takes the place of proper education, training, experience of DIR divers, and practice.

I am diving in a wetsuit right now, but do plan on going to a drysuit as soon as monetarily possible. Thus, based on what people have said, the 40lb. seems to be the right choice --for me. I just picked up an E8-130 (I know, huge, but I wanted the extra gas for Nitrox and longer dives like the Yukon, etc.). Also, it gives the possibilty to double them up in the future, when I get to that stage in the game....that's if PST is still around. I hope I don't start an argument about doubles...that seems to be going on in another thread. Thanks again.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Although I am essentially a new diver (and new to DIR), I do consider myself intelligent enough to understand proper weighting concepts (to a degree-not trying to be cocky, just not clueless), and to hopefully not get myself into drastic trouble with overweighting. One can never exclude diving experience, however, which is why I posted the question here and got some great responses.

I just wasn't sure, in terms of drag and streamlining, if the wings were drastically different and would cause unnecessary drag issues. (contrary to DIR philosophy). Since the difference seems negligible, I think I am going with the 40lb. wing. Hopefully I don't get struck down by the DIR top brass. Like some have said, it just provides a little extra lift without causing additional issues, and seems to be a little more versatile based on different possible diving environments and equipment. I know that nothing takes the place of proper education, training, experience of DIR divers, and practice.

I am diving in a wetsuit right now, but do plan on going to a drysuit as soon as monetarily possible. Thus, based on what people have said, the 40lb. seems to be the right choice --for me. I just picked up an E8-130 (I know, huge, but I wanted the extra gas for Nitrox and longer dives like the Yukon, etc.). Also, it gives the possibilty to double them up in the future, when I get to that stage in the game....that's if PST is still around. I hope I don't start an argument about doubles...that seems to be going on in another thread. Thanks again.

A 40 lb wing will in all likelyhood serve you well. Having said that a wing larger than you need will add drag, will be less stable, and will be more difficult to vent. Enough to spoil your day? Probably not, but it still seems silly when it's so easy to determine what you really need.

BTW, I dive SoCal routinely in steel doubles (85's mostly) with a prototype 40 lbs "Torus"

Tobin

 

[countryboy]

The E-8 130 is only ~10.5 negative when full. Even with a weighted STA (6 lbs) and SS BP (~5 lbs) that is only around 22 lbs to "float" the rig...

 

[DiegoDiver]

A 40 lb wing will in all likelyhood serve you well. Having said that a wing larger than you need will add drag, will be less stable, and will be more difficult to vent. Enough to spoil your day? Probably not, but it still seems silly when it's so easy to determine what you really need.

BTW, I dive SoCal routinely in steel doubles (85's mostly) with a prototype 40 lbs "Torus"

Tobin

Thanks for the input. It's tough to make a decision when you get numerous, differing opinions. Tough to figure out what's best.

This is from a link that was posted earlier from the bay area underwater explorers.

http://www.baue.org/faq/wing_size.html

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"For example, if you have a single steel tank, steel back plate, canister light, argon system, and 14lb of integrated weight then 36lb lift is probably not enough to keep the rig from sinking if you doff it at the surface.

Single aluminum 80, two-piece 6.5mm wet suit:

The breathing gas weighs 6lb or less, and the wet suit could lose up to 24lb of lift due to compression if you go deep enough. So a 30lb wing should be adequate. Note that the 30lb should be sufficient to float the rig at the surface, unless there is significant weight worn integrated with the BP/harness.

Single low pressure steel 95, trilaminate drysuit:

"The breathing gas weighs 7lb or less, we would like at least 10lbs for surface flotation (more for rough conditions), and drysuit divers often carry a little extra weight for warmth. Then we must consider that a steel 95 is at least -2lb negative (some makes are more negative), a steel backplate is -6lb and the canister light is usually at least -2lb. A 27lb wing might be sufficient for this configuration and some divers have successfully used a 27lb with this configuration. However more divers opt for having a little more margin and choose the 36lb wing, which should be more than sufficient for most applications. If significant amounts of integrated weights and/or non-ditchable weights are used a 45lb wing may be more appropriate."

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In both the above cases, I'm looking at a decent amount of integrated weight, maybe 12lbs with an AL80 and less in the case of steel. In both cases of integrated weight it suggests going with a higher lift capacity.

Here's the thing...maybe someone can shed some light on something I may be missing. Right now, with a 7 mil wetsuit, I'm using around 24 lbs. with an AL80 tank. (Even less with a steel tank). Let's stick with the AL80 for this example...At the beginning of a dive, the AL80 is roughly 4 lbs negative, so i'm looking at around 28 pounds that my current BC needs to handle if I need to take it off and float it for some reason (Seaquest Balance BC, weight integrated). It has around 36 lbs. lift I believe. More than adequate.

However, Let's say I continue to use an AL80 with the BP/W and my wetsuit. I'm still looking at needing ROUGHLY the same weight, just in a different combination, correct? So, with the 5lb backplate, 6lb STA, I still need roughly 13lbs more or less..handled with the Halcyon ACB system . (I'm not going to use a weightbelt. (Don't want to, and don't have to). I thought, according to what I have read, that you want to get as much weight off you waist as you can and move it towards your back. The ACB is ditchable if need be. With a steel tank, I can just reduce the amount of weight in the pouches even more.

So, with a full AL80, i'm still looking at roughly 28 pounds that the BP/W needs to handle if I have to take it off and float it. That doesn't give much wiggle room for the 30lb wing, due to the fact that I might have a primary canister light, and backup lights. So, is my math wrong here? Am I missing something? Also, if I go to a DS, which I plan on doing shortly, won't I need to tack on more weight anyways to compensate for the thick undergarment weight?....So wouldn't the 40lb wing be a better choice. Hopefully someone can explain what I'm missing here. Thanks