3 Divers lost on the Spiegel Grove

[Missdirected]

To be fair to Shakey and others who may have read Shakey's questions the way I did; I understood his question to be "how does one find out the risks at a a particular site".

Someone said earlier that the Spiegal can be quite easy, barring penetration. True, but, as was also stated, it can also be quite advanced. I believe he was asking how one goes about finding this out. Oddly he asked right here on this thread, contained here on SB, and was told to check SB

When people ask me about this wreck my reply is that it can be a very advanced dive. Meaning this is not one you would want to do for your first advanced dive. This is my opinion. I think perhaps this is what Shakey was trying to find out.

I believe another question was:
"Does anyone know of a dive site that has been declared 'off limits' because of a high accident rate and who has the authority to do this?"

Considering the US is the leader in lawsuits, I don't think it is off the mark for someone to assume that someone somewhere has already sued and now our government is involved in ScubaDiving.

I don't personally know of any dive-sites off the top of my head that have been declared off-limits. I am sure there have been sites that at one time were considered OW but later changed to AOW.

Now I do know of some who speak of certain wreck dives in much the same way as OW v. AOW. A wreck that at one time may have been considered a pretty average wreck dive may now be considered difficult. This may be due to several things one of which may be dilapidation of the vessel. Passageways that were once open may be blocked, etc.

As for who has authority: So far there hasn't been much government interference, thankfully.

 

[Scubakevdm]

Man. That's terrible news. I spent a lot of time on the Scuba-Do when Laurie and Tony owned it. They ran the op in a very safe and responsible way. I've never met Mark, but they spoke very highly of him, and that's enough for me to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. It doesn't sound like an operator thing anyway. I mean, once divers hit he water they're kinda running their own show.
I don't know anything about the circumstances specific to this incident, but I will say that the SG has a fair amount of easy, naturally lit penetration. Many of us are familiar with these "swim-throughs" However, the SG also has an extensive dark and scary maze of passageways, and they run pretty deep too. If you look hard enough, you can find 145 fs on the SG, so its got enough depth that if you run into a problem way up in her you may be facing some pretty serious consequences pretty quickly. I don't think the wreck is any more dangerous than any other penetration dive, but penetration diving has higher stakes, and sometimes trained or not, enough goes wrong that a guy can't recover. One more thing about whether or not the wreck is unsafe... although there have been six deaths on the Grove now, I'm not sure that all of them have been dive related... it seems like one the guys last year maybe, I think he was a doctor, had a heart attack or something. The woman from Virginia, I never heard anything conclusive regarding the cause of death, but I did hear that she was down for a very short period of time. Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think that the SG is some kind of monster that snaps up divers, but there's definitely the opportunity to get in over your head if you you go looking for it.
It seems to me that most of the time when we read about a tragedy like this that people are quick to cry lack of training, and unfortunately most of the time they're right, but at this point I'm gonna assume that they were trained and had a good plan and the right equipment and something or things went wrong.
The fact that one guy stayed out of the wreck strikes me a little funny though, I must say.

 

[H2Andy]

When people ask me about this wreck my reply is that it can be a very advanced dive. Meaning this is not one you would want to do for your first advanced dive. This is my opinion. I think perhaps this is what Shakey was trying to find out.

yeah

it basically depends on the current. if there's little or no current, it can be a pussycat

if there's any significant current ... it will tax your diving skills to the limit (funny how something as simple as a current can do that?)

 

[UWARK]

two ex students of Canucksubmariner, who did the recovery on the first body (the two ex students did)

(Canucksubmariner posted it on The Deco Stop)

Who is this?

 

[lifeisfullofgooddives]

I have gone diving with this out-fit multiple times and always been amazed at their professionalism and skill.

Having said that... last I heard she was under new management, and everyone who used to work on her doesn't anymore. Whether or not this is the case I don't know.

What I do know is that whenever I went on the Scuba-Do I never once got the sick feeling like something might go wrong...as I have had on some bigger cattle boats. I also would like to point out that I saw this very dive operator refuse to let divers who were not qualified dive the wreck....and that was on the dwane not the SG. Which leads me to believe that they are serious about one thing diving

But Like I said, supposedly they are under new ownership.

In either case I feel really bad for those that were lost, Next time I vist her (SG) I will be sure to say a little prayer for them.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Who is this?

He is a NAUI Course Director and NAUI Technical Course Director. He has been around on The Deco Stop for awhile. Hop on over and check it out. But I will tell you that it can be a little intimidating and being civil is not always a requirement. In fact neither is avoiding salty language.

 

[UWARK]

Must be Chris Richardson?

 

[AlaskaDiver]

Rigdiver posted:
"What I don't understand is why did one diver choose to stay outside? He was then without a buddy. When he was running low on air as stated he must have been having some very negative thoughts about the divers inside the wreck. Sad, truly sickening. Condolences and sympathy to family and friends."


I thought this to be the oddest thing about the accident based on the sparse information at the beginning. Why were there 3 divers going in and one diver on the outside?? Very sad.

 

[JoieDeMer]

An updated article just appeared in Saturday's Sun-Sentinel with a lot more info:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/lo...ar17,0,6755181.story?coll=sfla-home-headlines

"But the complexity and length of their adventure late Friday morning appears to have been more of a thrill-seeking stunt, the likes of which would appeal to someone who would climb Mount Everest, said Doc Schweinler, owner of Ocean Divers in Key Largo.

'I think they're the first ones to go in that deep since the wreck was sunk,' Schweinler said. 'Even advanced divers would not try to do what they did.'

That's the tricky task Key Largo Fire Rescue faces.

They'll have to descend about 70 feet into the ocean to reach the deck of the 510-foot shipwreck. Once they enter the wreck, they'll have about 35 minutes to enter the ship, go down another 60 to 70 feet and swim 80 to 90 feet inside the crowded ship -- and then get back to the surface, said Fire Rescue Chief Sergio Garcia.

The bodies are 'in a very, very tightly confined area,' Garcia said. 'Even the path to get to them is confined, almost like a maze.'"

 

[UWARK]

6' seas, 15 foot vis! Only the diver on the outside and safely to the surface can explain. This of course does not change the realness of the tragedy! My thoughts and prayers go to the survivors and the deceased. I also wish to not only thank the rescue attempts but wish for the peace to those who happened (unknowingly) upon the unresponsive diver. As to ability or certification for the dive, Advanced OW, staged 80's on the outside and 80's for penitration? We dive (should) according to our skill set and knowledge base, anything else is disaterous.

I have a group of experienced divers that are right now dealing with mixed feeling of what they witnessed, hearing, and wondering what they could have posibly done to assist or save one or all of these divers.

Two of our Instructors were the ones to bring the fist found unresponsive diver to the surface. Now speculation occurs; and nothing brings back the lives or the feelings that will impact them and the industry for life.

I wish for peace and positive direction for all involved. And as the investigation brings light to the occurance, may we all learn and grow not only ourselves but the future students and instructors of the industry.

There is no substitute for trainning and experience, with this comes wisdom.