3 Divers lost on the Spiegel Grove

[mdb]

That about sums it. Here's the waiver they all signed.

I doubt this "sums it". The surviving diver will help with all that.

The waivers are just legalise and will be challenged. Net result, three good divers down. God bless them.

 

[Steve50]

That about sums it. Here's the waiver they all signed.

Links to a snorkeling waiver?

 

[Dive Right In Scuba]

I really need to stop reading this thread....everytime I read it I just get more upset at the whole thing.....as MDB said....Three great divers down.......

 

[pir8]

I routinely get turned around on upright dry ships. Why anyone would want to go into the hull of a completely stripped out ship is beyond me. There's nothing there but steel bulkheads.

Maybe to practice for the wrecks that aren't sterile.

 

[Missdirected]

There are no welds on hatches, grates, or other barriers inside a wreck that will deny access to an interior compartment indefinitely.

In the case of this wreck, she was rolled nearly 90 degrees longitudinally by a hurricane and battered by multiple heavy storms. This had to produce unbelieveable pressures and stress fractures on her internal structure. Any welds may very well have been broken at that time.

Moreover, the wreck weakens and collapses by its own weight over time. Look at the photos of the Andrea Doria. The entire concept of a "out of bounds" area inside a shipwreck is flawed. Who is going to be responsible to enter into a collapsing shipwreck to attempt to ensure that multiple barriers to internal compartments remain sealed?

"Out of bounds" or "off limits" might work for a ski resort, but not for a wreck.

Someone produce a citation - any citation - defining this concept in greater detail.

I said much the same thing back in post 81. Wrecks are going to deteriorate. One that was once considered "easy" will become more difficult over time. Things like saltwater and hurricanes are going to ensure that.

Now my question is this: The friend who did not dive but gave his accounting of what Sprialter stated to him personally knew they were going to do the Pump Room. He said he was given that info first hand by them. Now did they know this area had originally been blocked off and dive it anyway?

Dive Right In, my apologies you are upset. :sad: However, I have learned from this. Even if what we are guessing turns out to be incorrect. It has served to remind me and drill into my head, even further, to be cautious of becoming complacent and too big for my britches, if you will. My friend, Walter, once shared with me a story about becoming complacent. It stuck with me. All these life stories stick me. There is a memorial thread I began a couple of days ago...

Marvel, I had started something earlier today but then abandoned it when Rick separated the posts and started another thread. Perhaps I will pick it up again tomorrow

As MDB said, I believe this survivor, just from his background, is going to share with us the whole story as soon as he is able.

 

[dldiver]

thanks, the article says it was an area that was "supposed to be off-limits"

i wonder what the heck the reporter means by that. as far as i know, there are no "off limit" areas in the Grove

and there it is again ...

i wonder what they mean by this?

Have any of you seen the Discovery Channel's special on preparing the Oriskany for sinking? There was quite a process of inspections they had to go thru before it could be cleared. I'm assuming a similar process happened for the Grove. (Yes, I do understand that she landed on her side and has since turned upright which could have weakened this prep)

FWIW, this is what I found on the Keys' "official" Spiegel Grove website that details the process of making the SG a environmentally safe, diver-friendly attraction:

http://www.fla-keys.com/spiegelgrove/spiegel_cleaning.cfm

The EPA and Florida Keys Sanctuary as well as the U.S. Coast Guard, the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission and Monroe County were required to inspect and sign off on the ship before it could be scuttled.
Another phase of the project involved making the ship as safe as possible for divers. Numerous hatches and doors were welded shut, while others were secured in an open position. Large holes were cut throughout the ship to provide entrance and egress points to help prevent divers from entrapment.
"Passing inspection was difficult, but Bay Bridge did an excellent job," said Rob Bleser, project manager for the Spiegel Grove sinking, representing the Key Largo Chamber of Commerce Artificial Reef Committee.

 

[AXL72]

There are no welds on hatches, grates, or other barriers inside a wreck that will deny access to an interior compartment indefinitely.

In the case of this wreck, she was rolled nearly 90 degrees longitudinally by a hurricane and battered by multiple heavy storms. This had to produce unbelieveable pressures and stress fractures on her internal structure. Any welds may very well have been broken at that time...

Well, it is true that the welds could have fractured over a portion of the perimiter of any plate welded over a hatch. However, the fracture would only be a few inches say 4 to 6 inches compared to about 148" of the perimiter for a square hatch. The fractures would be ductile and would relieve some of the stress and driving force causing the fracture, thereby arresting any further fracture along the weld.

Sounds like there were non-welded plate closures that a bolt cutter could have opened up. Right? or no?

 

[dldiver]

Whlie searching further, here's a brief excerpt from one more interesting link I found about the inspection that occured after the ship righted herself....or Dennis did.

(i believe stephen frink has contributed to this thread so maybe if he returns, he would be able to shed some light on the question of who monitors the "off-limits" areas...)

http://www.stephenfrink.com/sf-reports/200507-spiegel-grove/
July 18, 2005
From: Rob Bleser, Spiegel Grove Project Manager
To: All Parties Interested in Diving the Spiegel Grove
To All Dive Operators and Key Largo Sport Diving Interests:
As everyone is aware, the Spiegel Grove site has been closed to sport diving since the discovery of its miraculous roll into a perfectly upright position. The Sanctuary personnel, in conjunction with Monroe County representatives and volunteers, have been working diligently at the following:

• Assessment of stability
• Environmental analysis
• Diver ingress and egress/Diver safety issues
• Mooring buoy placement/pattern analysis and deployment

In general, the following analysis has been presented to the KLNMS Superintendent by John Halas (Resource Manager, KLNMS) and George Garrett (Director, Monroe County Marine Resources):

 

[Big Toes]

Damnit!! Let me teach you something about engineering and diving.

Put others at risk?? Hogwash.

Shoot, you can build skyscrapers in the swamps of Florida if you throw enough money at it!!!


1. Have you not heard of torches to open up the area of the ship where the bodies are suspected in order to pull em out safely???? Torches can be used to reeseal the ship at the cut location.


2. Have you not heard of saturation diving? The state should throw $120,000 or $300,000 to send a team of three divers in a diving atmosphere that can be recovered and attached to a decompression (not recompression) chamber on the deck of a commercial diving vessel after the bodies are recovered.

The team can have a two diver team with umbilical supplied air from the surface with surface communications wiring go through the deck and get the bodies. That way the torches wont ugly up the ship or make a tempting entrance to other divers.

3. Somone say putting lives at danger to recover the bodies?? hahahaha. There are safer ways, albeit expensive, to recover the bodies. No one has to be uinsafe or put at risk to recover bodies. Do it the right and safe way, dangit.

Think outside the box

Concerned about safety are ya? Well throw the right money at the prblem to do it safely. No excuses! Safety First....pocketbook second

hey axl72, it sounds like you know a little bit about sat diving, bit i'd like to be the first to tell you that is not a sat dive. it is easily within heo2 limits or air/nitrox (within the limits that you suggest) and should not take long. but good on you for posting that it needs to be a surface-supplied rescue op! when donathon died i always wondered why they didn't use s/s rigs to go and do the recovery. unbeknownst to yall, it's not that expensive and it's a hell of a lot safer...

 

[Technology_Shark]

A dive reel and a single al80 on their back and the boat operator let them get off the boat? It does'nt seem to me that the boat operator used very good judgement if this is true.
If they brought a dive reel with them then they had obvious plans to penetrate and the boat operator should have seen that reel and a single tank and said no way, the reel stays or you do. I feel this has the makings of an easily preventable accident with fault in many areas or a combination of fault and bad luck.

To the families, I offer my condolances and the knowledge that if I had to die, I can't think of a more beautiful place than in the waters off Key Largo.