2 Finnish divers dead, 3 injured in Plurdalen / Norway

[gobfish1]

Seems like the "Team" system/concept broke down and did not work as planned/intended (not to be unexpected in a cave).

But let us clear up the "Habitat" part.

I understand that this dive the Team(s) wanted to do the traverse from one end to the other and then do it again, but starting the other end (after leaving the equipment in the cold cave overnight...).

So, either they set-up two Habitats (one at each end of the traverse which would have been a daunting task for 5 people... or there is permanent Habitats there???), or they planned to do TWO 5 hr, 4C, 129 meters dives on consecutive days no habitat on rebreather?

yes habitat would be the best , cant say if one came in to the plan , as i cant say they had planned to use the breather for all of the dive plan ,

having said that you have to concede that one of the units did 130m twice

ps
looking at the jj link it donr seem they were short on good / top end kit ,

 

[gianaameri]

yes habitat would be the best , cant say if one came in to the plan , as i cant say they had planned to use the breather for all of the dive plan ,

having said that you have to concede that one of the units did 130m twice

It'd be nice to talk more about the actual rebreathers used and their capabilities, including the one who did 129 meters twice for 400 meters on scooter - to stay factual.

Any news on the units used?

 

[gobfish1]

It'd be nice to talk more about the actual rebreathers used and their capabilities, including the one who did 129 meters twice for 400 meters on scooter - to stay factual.

Any news on the units used?

yes 400m ,twice , id have to say the 5th diver , almost did that dive twice , , as for what unit , a jj is just a copy of well know yellow unit , but had humps
(back mount lungs ) im sure we well all get to know more it time ,

 

[JukkaO]

Deep part was at the beginning of the dive for all. No problem if you do not work and stay calm. The marginal is just quite small. With OC it is still small but a bit bigger than with CCR. All three that survived had to work more than expected but there was enough marginal with scrubbers for them. On has to make decisions. If you try to get through to have a short way to surface it is very complex and more stress to think how long to try before turning. 5 had nothing to do as 3 was on the way and working. He had two choices.

 

[gianaameri]

yes 400m ,twice , id have to say the 5th diver , almost did that dive twice , , as for what unit , a jj is just a copy of well know yellow unit , but had humps
(back mount lungs ) im sure we well all get to know more it time ,

Sorry, that is misinformation.

A JJ is not a copy of anything. It is a JJ and does not mimic anything else. Its tested performance is different from other units.

It has its own unique JJ Axial scrubber and its own unique JJ Radial scrubber and each perform differently in the same unique JJ unit.

Fact is as of this point we do not know if a JJ or which other unit was used this dive (and no rebreather that I know of is suitable for a no habitat, 129 meter, 4C, 5 hour dive based on available test data).

 

[gobfish1]

Sorry, that is misinformation.

A JJ is not a copy of anything. It is a JJ and does not mimic anything else. Its tested performance is different from other units.

It has its own unique JJ Axial scrubber and its own unique JJ Radial scrubber and each perform differently in the same unique JJ unit.

Fact is as of this point we do not know if a JJ or which other unit was used this dive (and no rebreather that I know of is suitable for a no habitat, 129 meter, 4C, 5 hour dive based on available test data).

lets not get the hump or get a head of are self,s we have no facts as yet , and you as a cave diver im sure could work out a dive time for this 2036m long dive , given the fact we do have from other dives , and the 34m swim in 450m plus the 250 sump and the 400m deep bit , using a DPV at half speed, ist 1400m if you take out the sump and the 34m swim

sorry , but if you think its more run me up a profile and dpv speeds , do 80m each side of the 400m deep spot , im sure you being a caver can do a lot better than i can , i get 179mins back at 6m

im not arsed about CE or what unit ,at the mo , fact is no5 did the dive allmost twice , and your sayimg it cant / should not ne done the once , am i getting that right ,

fact ,id say he did ithe dive twice given the stress he was under , end off, habtat on not ,

 

[gianaameri]

lets not get the hump or get a head of are self,s we have no facts as yet , and you as a cave diver im sure could work out a dive time for this 2036m long dive , given the fact we do have from other dives , and the 34m swim in plus the 250 sump and the 400m deep bit , using a DPV at half speed, its not a 5hr dive , ist 1400m if you take out the sump and the 34m swim

sorry , but if you think its more run me up a profile and dpv speeds , do 80m each side of the 400m deep spot , im sure you being a caver can do a lot better than i can ,

Let us talk about DPV in 4C water for 5 hours then - in a cave using a rebreather (as much we know).

What do you think would happen mid-way the 129 meter section if the DPV fails (not a low probability event, and one did fail this dive)?

 

[gobfish1]

Let us talk about DPV in 4C water for 5 hours then - in a cave using a rebreather (as much we know).

What do you think would happen mid-way the 129 meter section if the DPV fails (not a low probability event, and one did fail this dive)?

well go on you tell me your the cave diver , his work load go,s up and has more risk of a co2 hit , so they have a plan like all good cave divers do ,

when using a DPV , OC OR BTRATHER , tell me more ,

 

[gianaameri]

well go on you tell me your the cave diver , his work load go,s up and has more risk of a co2 hit , so they have a plan like all good cave divers do ,

when using a DPV , OC OR BTRATHER , tell me more ,

Well, if the DPV fails at 129 meters, a bail-out rebreather is of no help if your rebreather WOB is too high (although it may still be working). 200 meters swim at 129 meters is a lot of OC gas to carry, and this just for those first 200 meters.

So, yes, you are right, a prudent cave diver would have a bail-out plan on OC and enough gas to exit including if a DPV and his rebreather both failed at the worst possible time.

It seems in this dive instead that there was not enough gas to cover DPV and rebreather failure which in addition to the rebreathers being dived well beyond their tested capabilities raises the risk profile further.

 

[gobfish1]

Well, if the DPV fails at 129 meters, a bail-out rebreather is of no help if your rebreather WOB is too high (although it may still be working). 200 meters swim at 129 meters is a lot of OC gas to carry, and this just for those first 200 meters.

So, yes, you are right, a prudent cave diver would have a bail-out plan on OC and enough gas to exit including if a DPV and his rebreather both failed at the worst possible time.

It seems in this dive instead that there was not enough gas to cover DPV and rebreather failure which in addition to the rebreathers being dived well beyond their tested capabilities raises the risk profile further.

well i dont know anout that m8 , seem,s to me no5 had all most 11hr woth , how can you come up with not enough gas , maybe the plan was to tow the buddy out ,

ps i dont think he did all the time on his breather do you ,