2 divers missing in Karpathos island Greece

[60plus]

I feel it appropriate to make some comments on Greece, our American friends in particular may not be aware of the situation there. Basically their country is bust with no or very little money for healthcare, pensions or pubic sector wages. Many of the citizens are completely fed up with authority (a rule for every thing and a solution for nothing). The law and many rules are disregarded. Virtually no one wears seat belts or crash helmets, the taxi drivers have a spare metal end off the seat belt to put in the clip instead of wearing belts. The main bank in Lindos is now a donkey stable for tourist rides etc. Despite their hardships I found them a wonderful and welcoming people. Against such a background its not surprising a bit of dodgy diving goes on but compare the death rate to this from to another statistic.
In the UK a male commits suicide every 6 minutes

 

[Esprise Me]

I feel for the people of Greece; they've been in a bad way for a while now. But it seems to me--and please correct me if I'm wrong--that there's a pretty relaxed attitude toward safety in this sport in much of Europe, including Greece, that predates the current economic situation. There were some comments in that First Cave Dives thread, among other places on and off this board, that gave me the impression that not only is cave diving in Europe less regulated and controlled than it is in Florida or Mexico (Mexico!), but that cave diving by OW divers is tolerated and perhaps even encouraged in the community in a way it isn't everywhere. It's a little strange to me, because in many other areas Europeans seem to tolerate more government intervention in their lives than Americans do (you can't shoot your eye out as easily there, for one thing...) So is there a blind spot in this specific area, or is it part of something larger I can't quite make out the shape of? Or am I totally off base?

 

[dytis-sm]

There are no laws to stop you from strapping on a tank and go to any depth you want. The laws of physics will prevail however and this is why the scuba industry self regulates itself and issues certifications. But those will allow you to get on a dive boat and get air fills. After you jump in the water you can do anything you want and no government agency will protect you or stop you. These guys apparently were experienced divers, one of them being an instructor. Have no clue how this relates to the economic situation in Greece or the Greek resistance to rules and laws. These guys were not even GREEK...

 

[MrVegas]

This is getting off topic, so remove if warranted. However, I was in Greece this past summer and had a great time, including two days of diving where the operators seemed very safety conscious.

 

[Khrissi]

This is getting off topic, so remove if warranted. However, I was in Greece this past summer and had a great time, including two days of diving where the operators seemed very safety conscious.

Actually best reply on here. Poor country + tourism = better off country. Go diving there ( Obvs with yr good kit ) enjoy yrself and help their local economy. K

 

[stepfen]

Sorry guys, we are indeed going off topic here but I can't resist. All of you who call Greece a poor country have you actually been here??
Yes we are not among the wealthiest countries, yes we've been through a lot of trouble since 2008 (the remaining Capital Controls were just lifted 3 days ago!), yes our economy is struggling to grow again, but calling Greece a poor country? I am not sure.
Here are some facts (current numbers or current estimates taken from wikipedia):
- GDP total 57th
- GDP per capita 47th
- Nominal GDP per capita 38th
- 7th most visited country in EU - 16th in the world.
- The Greek merchant marine is the largest in the world at 16.2% of the world's total capacity
- Health care expenditure was on OECD's average - now (after the crisis) it is a bit lower, but not too far.
- Life expectancy in Greece is among the highest in the world (although we have the largest percentage of adult daily smokers of any of the OECD members )
and so on...
Yes there are a lot of things that need to be improved (us Greeks first of all, infrastructure, governance, law system etc etc) but I wouldn't call us a poor country. Or to say it in a different way, if only all poor countries in the world could be as poor as Greece.

Now back to diving. Greeks when in Greece hate to follow rules and we try our best to cut corners etc. When we live abroad we are usually doing fine - but that's another story.
For diving I can't tell for sure because I only have dived locally (only 2 different land based operators) and in Indonesia (5 different land based operators). That's a very small sample to draw any conclusions. Basic rules are followed here more than eg in Indonesia although I have seen unacceptable things here too.
One of them being bringing OW divers to caverns/caves.

There was another thread discussing this (First cave dives) that was closed to comments yesterday. My post there was #31 First cave dives

I am very inexperienced to judge but I can see a huge difference between the dive the two victims of this post did (to summarize: unknown to them cave with entrance at 150feet, unguided , with no back-up gas supply, no lights, no line etc - let's call this type A cave diving) and the dives I describe in my post in that other thread where very well known caves/cavers (at least to the guides) are dived with very good conditions (no silt, no currents, no narrow passages, no dead ends, usually with enough natural light with very good visibility, always guided etc - let's call these type B cave diving).

And to go back to the discussion about Greece, I don't think Greece has anything to do with Type A cave dives. Unfortunately accident statistics prove that such dives/accidents happen very regularly worldwide with the very well known unfortunate results.

Now for Type B cave dives I think they are also very common if not world wide to several countries, hence again I don't think Greece has anything to do with it.

I have an idea for a good new thread here - but I don't have time to write more right now. I will open a new thread discussing something very related to these soon.

All the best!

 

[dytis-sm]

Now we are totally off topic... and I am sorry to have engaged. But fell that the country was just the setting for this accident. That could have taken place anywhere in the world. Signing off.