19cuft Catalina Pony Question

[elmer fudd]

Not to hijack, but today was my first time in the water with a slung bottle. I now have two 19cf ponies, both set up with stage rigging. I hopped in the pool this morning to try out my new drygloves, drysuit hood, fins, and pony that I have obtained since my last bit of diving.

The pony is set up with a Poseidon Jetstream 1st and 2nd stages with about a 27' hose. I chose to initially bungee the 2nd stage and hose to the tank when not in use with two bungie loops, and left the system pressurized with the 2nd stage set for higher resistance to avoid freeflow.

The only thing I had a little trouble with was clipping the bolt snaps to my left side D-rings on my BP/W harness with the dry gloves on, especially the lower one.(I was there to practice skills and try my new goodies prior to ice diving in a month or two so I practiced this a bit.) It was a little hard to get to my SPG clip on the left lower D-ring as well, but that is to be expected I guess. From a complete "slug-bottle-noobs" perspective, I thought it went pretty well, and I really did not notice any extra drag or swimming resistance while using it.

Looking forward to improving my comfort and proficiency for dealing with new gear configurations. Thanks for all the ideas and discussion!!!

I know the DIR folks love brass snap clips like these,
Amazon.com: Clip/Snap -Brass: Kitchen & Dining
I hate 'em myself. Fumbling around with dry gloves on, trying to reach D-rings you can't quite see and then detaching or attaching those things is a major PITA.

I much prefer these.
Brass Snap Hook - Austin Kayak - Product Details
There's still a fumble factor, but I find them several orders of magnitude easier to use.

 

[Crush]

I know the DIR folks love brass snap clips like these,
Amazon.com: Clip/Snap -Brass: Kitchen & Dining
I hate 'em myself. Fumbling around with dry gloves on, trying to reach D-rings you can't quite see and then detaching or attaching those things is a major PITA.

I much prefer these.
Brass Snap Hook - Austin Kayak - Product Details
There's still a fumble factor, but I find them several orders of magnitude easier to use.

elmer fudd, I disagree with some of the voiced objections to your "suicide clips." I believe that your gear should be appropriate to the style of diving that you are doing. Certainly "suicide clips" are a poor choice if you are cave diving or diving in areas where entanglement risks are high and the ability to mediate an entanglement is reduced. The same goes for retractors of any sort, and for diving without spring straps. However, if you are drift diving in the open ocean it doesn't really matter.

 

[DevonDiver]

You should. There is no reason to turn it off.

Decompression cylinders are charged then shut off to avoid an accidental mix up of gas.

This is quite simply untrue.

Decompression cylinders are pressurized and shut-down to prevent a freeflow from causing the loss of vital gas. They are turned on only as and when they are needed.

Given that most decompression divers would be utilizing 2 deco gases, having them (both) turned off or on would not factor in an error accessing the wrong gas at the wrong time. Decompression divers mark their tank, and follow strict gas swapping procedures to prevent the accidental mix up of gas.

This is what is taught on technical/decompression courses.

The logic in shutting down to prevent essential gas loss is true for any redundant gas source, not just deco gasses. However, loss of redundant gas is not critical / life endangering for a recreational (non-overhead/deco) diver, because if their pony contents was lost, they could simply abort and return immediately to the surface.

Pressurizing and shutting down a redundant gas cylinder is perfectly logical, as it ensures the preservation of the gas until the point in the dive that it is needed. Obviously, if such procedures were used, it would be critical that the necessary drills were incorporated into the divers' emergency reactions and ingrained as an instinctive skill. IMHO, it would represent 'best practice'.

 

[DevonDiver]

elmer fudd, I disagree with some of the voiced objections to your "suicide clips." I believe that your gear should be appropriate to the style of diving that you are doing. Certainly "suicide clips" are a poor choice if you are cave diving or diving in areas where entanglement risks are high and the ability to mediate an entanglement is reduced. The same goes for retractors of any sort, and for diving without spring straps. However, if you are drift diving in the open ocean it doesn't really matter.

This would mean that the diver concerned would be obligated to re-configure their kit, if they ever found themselves in an area with entanglement hazards. Can you really see that a diver would go out and replace all their clips during their holiday, when they find out that their dive operator is visiting a wreck the next day?

I don't believe in chanting the 'you're gonna die' mantra in respect of recreational diving kit... but I do believe in advising divers to buy the optimum kit that is available. Suicide clips are not optimum. There are better, safer alternatives available at the same cost, with the same convenience, which provide equally good, or better, functionality.

Just get the right gear, first time around.....

I know the DIR folks love brass snap clips like these,

It's not a 'DIR thing'. It's common through-out the tech diving community.

Hint: (DIR is not a descriptive name for 'tech diving'.)

I hate 'em myself. Fumbling around with dry gloves on, trying to reach D-rings you can't quite see and then detaching or attaching those things is a major [-]PITA[/-] exposure of my lack of practice and skill.

I much prefer these.Brass Snap Hook - Austin Kayak - Product Details
There's still a fumble factor, but I find them several orders of magnitude easier to use.

Convenience over safety. Are you sure you really want to advocate that publically?

 

[Crush]

This would mean that the diver concerned would be obligated to re-configure their kit, if they ever found themselves in an area with entanglement hazards. Can you really see that a diver would go out and replace all their clips during their holiday, when they find out that their dive operator is visiting a wreck the next day?

I don't believe in chanting the 'you're gonna die' mantra in respect of recreational diving kit... but I do believe in advising divers to buy the optimum kit that is available. Suicide clips are not optimum. There are better, safer alternatives available at the same cost, with the same convenience, which provide equally good, or better, functionality.

Just get the right gear, first time around.....

Based upon his post, I assumed that elmer fudd is not a DIR/tech/cave diver. Given that these assumptions are correct, he may never find himself in a situation where an entanglement hazard exists, therefore he may never have to reconfigure his gear.

I would argue that suicide clips are not "sub-optimum" if you are using one to clip off a small camera on your chest D-ring on a drift dive over a reef.

 

[Dr Wu]

This is quite simply untrue.

I guess that depends on who you ask.


From George Irvine III:

To deploy a stage, we look for the correct marking, we put the reg around our neck, we turn on the bottle, put the reg in our mouth, and if we can breathe, we are breathing the correct gas. It’s just that simple.


Again later..

The correct procedure when ready to breathe a gas is to locate the correct bottle by the MOD, remove the reg, place that reg around the neck and into the mough, then go back and re-locate the correct bottle and turn it on. IF YOU CAN BREATHE, YOU ARE BREATHING THE RIGHT GAS.

All emphasis his.

 

[Crush]

Decompression cylinders are charged then shut off to avoid an accidental mix up of gas.

Not true. They are charged to prevent water intrusion. They are shut off to prevent loss of gas. They are properly labeled to avoid mix-up. After all, you observed:

From George Irvine III:

To deploy a stage, we look for the correct marking, we put the reg around our neck, we turn on the bottle, put the reg in our mouth, and if we can breathe, we are breathing the correct gas. It’s just that simple.


Again later..

The correct procedure when ready to breathe a gas is to locate the correct bottle by the MOD, remove the reg, place that reg around the neck and into the mough, then go back and re-locate the correct bottle and turn it on. IF YOU CAN BREATHE, YOU ARE BREATHING THE RIGHT GAS.

All emphasis his.

My emphasis is in red. As you correctly point out though quotation, markings prevent mix-up. The selective pressurization of the correct bottle, identified by its markings, is a further check on this. However, this check could well be accomplished on previously-pressurized bottles that were left open by turning the valve off, breathing down the gas as a confirmation, then re-opening the valve.

You seem to not be able to see when you are wrong, even when others point it out...

 

[DevonDiver]

I guess that depends on who you ask.

No it doesn't. You've quoted an isolated part of the gas-swap procedure and exposed your lack of understanding in doing so.

 

[Dr Wu]

No it doesn't. You've quoted an isolated part of the gas-swap procedure and exposed your lack of understanding in doing so.

I quoted the relevant portion.

You said this:

Given that most decompression divers would be utilizing 2 deco gases, having them (both) turned off or on would not factor in an error accessing the wrong gas at the wrong time.

Please explain how this switching procedure would work with two deco gases both turned on:

To deploy a stage, we look for the correct marking, we put the reg around our neck, we turn on the bottle, put the reg in our mouth, and if we can breathe, we are breathing the correct gas. It’s just that simple.


Stated a second time

The correct procedure when ready to breathe a gas is to locate the correct bottle by the MOD, remove the reg, place that reg around the neck and into the mough, then go back and re-locate the correct bottle and turn it on. IF YOU CAN BREATHE, YOU ARE BREATHING THE RIGHT GAS.

 

[Crush]

I quoted the relevant portion.

You said this:



Please explain how this switching procedure would work with two deco gases both turned on:

To deploy a stage, we look for the correct marking, we put the reg around our neck, we turn on the bottle, put the reg in our mouth, and if we can breathe, we are breathing the correct gas. It’s just that simple.


Stated a second time

The correct procedure when ready to breathe a gas is to locate the correct bottle by the MOD, remove the reg, place that reg around the neck and into the mough, then go back and re-locate the correct bottle and turn it on. IF YOU CAN BREATHE, YOU ARE BREATHING THE RIGHT GAS.





I was not discussing recreational dive instruction.



Why do you say that?

DevonDiver pointed out your errors.

I pointed out your errors by way of clarification.

How many more people need to point out your errors before you stop defending your obvious mistakes? Or will you never stop defending your mistakes?