Is it time to kill DSDs and go back to the drawing board?

[boulderjohn]

Fine. I changed many to some. Are you happy now? JFC, let's not obfuscate the point I was making. Jesus.

He is not obfuscating your point. He is questioning is validity.

This is a very infuriatingly common practice on ScubaBoard. People make statements about the way diving is done throughout the world based on their tiny experience, experience that might be totally contrary to what others have experienced. The most common thing you see goes like this: "When I was certified, in my class (and therefore in all classes in the world back then) this is what we did, and I just saw a recent class in which things were different (and that class must represent all classes in the world today).

 

[Colliam7]

Fine. I changed many to some. Are you happy now? JFC, let's not obfuscate the point I was making. Jesus.

Kosta, I am not trying to be difficult. But, YOU made the broad statement, that you have seen it in 'MANY' dive centers. I have seen it, as well - in all of one center. I know it occurs, and I don't like it (and reported the dive center to PADI, by the way). Your statement makes it seem like a common occurence. I am simply asking you to justify that (semi-)quantitative statement.

So, what is the point that you are making? I am not trying to obfuscate anything. I just want to know what is real and what is personal bias. Is it that there are some dive centers that don't do things right? If so, I agree. That was Darcy's point as well. Is it common? I have no evidence of that. Is it the 'standard of practice'? I certainly have no evidence of that.

If we are going to have an intelligent discussion of the important issues that Darcy raised, we should use accurate language

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

He is not obfuscating your point. He is questioning is validity.

This is a very infuriatingly common practice on ScubaBoard. People make statements about the way diving is done throughout the world based on their tiny experience, experience that might be totally contrary to what others have experienced. The most common thing you see goes like this: "When I was certified, in my class (and therefore in all classes in the world back then) this is what we did, and I just saw a recent class in which things were different (and that class must represent all classes in the world today).

John,

You are missing the point here. PADI is being blamed for not following up. My point is (and I feel I need to spell it out) is that IF PADI doesn't receive a registration about a participant, how exactly is PADI supposed to follow up? My point is don't be so quick to judge the agency. I never said that it happens all the time. I believe it is a minority, but that it does exist.

Question for you. Are you saying that all people who say they observed/experienced some event claim that it is universally true?

Come on. Please don't answer. You know that isn't the case.

And let's get back to the topic of discussion, shall we? This is a good thread. Let's not ruin it with bickering.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Kosta, I am not trying to be difficult. But, YOU made the broad statement, that you have seen it in 'MANY' dive centers. I have seen it, as well - in all of one center. I know it occurs, and I don't like it (and reported the dive center to PADI, by the way). Your statement makes it seem like a common occurence. I am simply asking you to justify that (semi-)quantitative statement.

So, what is the point that you are making? I am not trying to obfuscate anything. I just want to know what is real and what is personal bias. Is it that there are some dive centers that don't do things right? If so, I agree. That was Darcy's point as well. It it common? I have no evidence of that. Is it the 'standard of practicve'? I certainly have no evidence of that.

If we are going to have an intelligent discussion of the important issues that Darcy raised, we should use accurate language

If you wish to discuss this further with PM, I'd be happy to answer. Out of respect to the issue Darcy has raised, I believe I have clarified/fixed it.

 

[boulderjohn]

Question for you. Are you saying that all people who say they observed/experienced some event claim that it is universally true?

And there you go again.

I say that it is common on ScubaBoard for people to take what they have experienced or seen in an instance or two and claim it as a universal characteristic of all scuba instruction at that time, and you twist that to having me say that all people do that, which is not remotely close to what I wrote.

A few weeks ago you implied that all instruction by all agencies that are part of the WRSTC sucks. (Not that much of an exaggeration of your actual words.) You cannot seem to help making those gross exaggerations. (For those who don't know, the agencies in the WRSTC certify at least 95% of the world's divers--it might be closer to 99%.)

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

And there you go again.

I say that it is common on ScubaBoard for people to take what they have experienced or seen in an instance or two and claim it as a universal characteristic of all scuba instruction at that time, and you twist that to having me say that all people do that, which is not remotely close to what I wrote.

A few weeks ago you implied that all instruction by all agencies that are part of the WRSTC sucks. (Not that much of an exaggeration of your actual words.) You cannot seem to help making those gross exaggerations. (For those who don't know, the agencies in the WRSTC certify at least 95% of the world's divers--it might be closer to 99%.)

No John, there YOU go again. I never said any such thing. You have no interest in constructive dialog, but simply as the self-appointed defender of all things PADI to slander someone's point out of facts that you see as damaging to your precious agency.

Like it or not, the industry does deserve criticism. That isn't to say that everything in the industry is wrong, just that many things can be improved.

This is like when you accused me of using deceptive language when saying a course from an agency from SDI or NAUI or any other that allows/encourages instructors to augment performance requirements, when I specifically underlined potential. When I put emphasis on that word with an underline, it is pretty clear of what I am saying.

Sorry John, but your agenda is typically transparent. You may think everyone is dumb, but we are not.

And again, I'm actually defending PADI here where one person complained that PADI dropped the ball. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't.

 

[GreggS]

My 1st three times I dived were in DSD programs at different locations...Aruba, Cozumel, and Key West. All three were done well, except that the one in Cozumel was a bit crowded and the skills portion was done in the surf instead of a pool like the others. Aruba and Coz were cruise ship excursions while Key West was when my wife and I had driven down for a vacation. I had been wanting to try scuba diving and had wanted to get certified but life kept getting in the way.

Both my wife and I finally got certified and we have been diving quite a lot since. We go every weekend during the summer unless we have another commitment that prevents it as well as do dive vacations. When people ask me about diving, I always tell them how great it is and the fun we have. I'll show them photos and videos I've taken and they always ooh and aah over them. But a lot of times they say they don't know if they would like it and I'll suggest doing a DSD as it would be less expensive and they can do it in a day. We have a dive quarry near us that is full service and does them so there wouldn't be a lot of driving to check it out. I think the DSD program is great for someone that isn't sure and wants to experience it to see if it's for them or not without going to the expense and time required to get full certification.

While I admit there may be some outfits out there that don't do the DSD properly, and that some people try it and figure out it's not for the, I'd rather not see the program done away with. As I mentioned, it's a great way for potential divers to get a sample of the activity.

 

[Joris Vd]

I read the entire thing, but the article is meager and that's being generous.

You don't provide any of the data you're talking about with these DSD experiences. It's all anecdotal.
The focus group is way too small, it's one shop. The data is worthless in this quantity.

Another gripe I have with it is that you're using the drop out rate with DSD.
You're not dropping out when you're doing DSD. There is no followup after DSD. It's a tryout to see wether you actually like scuba.

Without trying to do the same thing: it would only be valuable to check if you actually did a study as to why exactly these people did a DSD.

If you don't know the motivation for choosing DSD, comparing DSD and certifications is like comparing going to a shooting range once with a 'sports shooting course'.
The motivations and purposes of these courses are completely different. That also makes it more difficult to compare the data or even consider the data valuable in connection to one another.

You also don't link to any data actually supporting that 70 % 'awful' experiences. The word 'awful' should also probably not even be used in a context where you are calling someone up to gather data. Unless you give them a survey where the word awful is literally one of the choices.

To make this somewhat meaningful you would need a waaay bigger focus group, many shops from multiple regions (could still be NA only and be significant) and actually use a system to check the initial motivation before the bad experience and categorise the type of bad experience.

That way you could analyse or atleast have a meaningful way of seeing why these experiences are awful.

Now you just claim they are bad and assume things without actually providing a meaningful data backed answer to why they are bad.

 

[GreggS]

When I did the DSD in Aruba, which was my first time, there was only one other person doing the excursion. And she was only doing it because her fiancé was a diver and he wanted her to become one. I could tell during the "classroom" part of the initiation that she was very apprehensive, almost timid to answer any questions. When we got done with that and went to the pool for skill instruction, she struggled with that. The instructor saw that and got me thru that portion and had me to just swim around the pool practicing so that he could take time with her. He finally got her thru it and we proceeded to the boat. We went to a dive sight that was only about 25 ft deep and we were following the rope down slowly and she simply couldn't do it. We only got down to about 10 feet deep and I think she was having trouble equalizing as well as she didn't want to do it anyway. She was just not comfortable being under water. So the instructor had us ascend, got her back on the boat, and then he and I went for a great dive. I had a wonderful experience and I thought the instructor went out of his way to work with the woman to get her comfortable and thru the experience. It just wasn't going to happen with her.

I would surmise that this type of experience is what a lot of the "awful experiences" are. People try it, don't like it, and never go any further. question whether this type of individual adds up to 70%, though. I would also think that a lot of people try DSD on a lark while on a cruise or resort vacation, or as someone mentioned earlier, as a bucket list item, and then aren't interested in pursuing certification. I could imagine that as many as 70% of the people that participate in a DSD doesn't proceed into certification training, but I don't think all of them would be "awful" experiences.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

A big draw for new divers is finding community. If a discovery dive is taken at a resort, the community aspect is lost. The first thing new divers post on Facebook is often to find someone to dive with. How sad to lose an enthusiastic diver because they lack a buddy. Successful shops create and promote these communities.

Well, that’s another reason to support your local dive shop, if you like them and they are worth supporting.
Years ago that’s all there was were shops. There was no internet or online message boards. There was also no online shopping for discount gear, trips, and the phenomenon of Amazon. The dive shop was it, they were the center for booking trips, finding buddies, buying gear, classes, sponsoring fun dives, some had a dive club. I fondly remember the days of BS’ing and telling lies around the fill station and having some good laughs,
They also ran diving the way they wanted. They exposed you to what they wanted you to know.
There are pluses and minuses of how it was then and how it is now… a double edged sword.
Finding buddies on Facebook or online doesn’t seem the same as meeting people in person face to face and talking to them to see what they’re made of.
People can talk a big game and create a false persona online, then when you finally meet up it’s a completely different thing. I found this out the hard way with a few online based dive clubs I started.
Finding good compatible dive buddies is an artform in itself.