Rescue or ???

[Esprise Me]

I've read about that case, and I don't think it should be read as a cautionary tale against getting rescue cert. As I understand it, he wasn't initially going to be prosecuted, until his wife's family pushed for it, because they believed it was murder. There seems to have been a lot of backstory there that wouldn't apply in a regular buddy situation.

 

[Diving Dubai]

Here is my 2bar, but as a warning it will probably be an unpopular opinion.

1. Yes Rescue is a great course (if done correctly) and students can be greatly challenged and they can come away not only learning new skills, but learn something about themselves and their capabilities (often with ego bruised at some point)

2. When to take the course: When you are comfortable at the surface "self rescuing" yourself. Those divers who become flustered dealing with their own issues at the surface, who simply for instance can manage to climb out of their own gear without assistance, perhaps can't find a dropped reg, or deal with an inflator hose being disconnected or any other of the basic skills really aren't ready for Rescue. As with any course the basics from previous courses need to be practiced and consolidated prior to moving forward.

3 Rescue skills like all other skills degrade rapidly with lack of practice. While its not generally possible for people to physically practice the skills, they can mentally run through all the steps. I see this far too often with DM candidates, who might have taken Rescue within the last year, but look blankly when asked to run through "Unresponsive Diver at the Surface for the First time" (Sadly the same applied to Instructor Candidates - but I'm allowed to be less polite with them!) If that person can't manage in a confined water zero stress situation., how will they manage in a stressful OW event?

Someone holding a Rescue card who hasn't kept up to date and mentally prepared, is simply and OW student with a different card

Any diver who uses Rescue as bragging rights is a fool.


As for "Policing" other divers - it's just not possible, and perhaps intervention to another diver may be considered unwelcome - especially if they have more dives than you and (Their ego) thinks they're a more experienced diver.

As an Instructor, if I'm on a fun dive, yes my instinct it to keep an eye out, and yes I will intervene either underwater, or on the surface If I think it's necessary/worthwhile - Yes I've had quiet words with DM's too - But its not possible to police the whole group, and there is a line between caring for other people and enjoying a dive myself

Lots of divers are both selfish in that they concentrate on themselves only, but this is often compounded by the fact, these divers don't have the mental bandwidth to concentrate on anything other than the mechanics of their own diving, despite what their egos think, they haven't progressed to the point where breathing, buoyancy depth control etc are all automatic and require zero thought, allowing them to keep view the bigger picture.

The DM course while good if taught correctly, isn't a magic card. the quick 10 day courses are worthless. It takes a great deal of practice to become a competent DM when guiding, to be able to keep a mental picture of everyone's gas levels, to herd carts, and anticipate problems. People learn more guiding real customers than basic controlled scenarios. Trust me customers are unpredictable, and sometimes its impossible to control the uncontrollable.

As for protecting yourself from possible litigation, Conduct yourself within the limits of your training. Unfortunately we live in an era where people refuse to accept personal responsibility for their actions, demanding that someone else must always be at fault.

 

[Scraps]

Gabe Watson was tried and convicted in Australia for the death of his wife. Depending on whose story you believe he was either grossly incompetent, or murdered his wife.

Assuming gross incompetence, that's at least one case of a non-professional having criminal charges brought against them for failure to rescue.

OK. So don't do what Gabe Watson did, and you'll be fine. Don't fail to take any action at all while your wife and dive buddy drowns with a regulator in her mouth, air in her tank, and perfectly functioning equipment. Don't give 16 different versions of what happened, none of which match the testimony of the only eyewitness. Don't create suspicions that you turned off her air and held her down. Don't sue for insurance coverage and then withdraw the suit because you realize your testimony will incriminate you in your criminal trial. Don't plead guilty to manslaughter.

If Gabe Watson is the best example, the risk is pretty low. Of all the criminal and civil court cases he was involved in, the only ones that went against him were his own suit for insurance money that he withdrew, and the murder rap he beat by pleading guilty to manslaughter.

In fact, the expert who was initially inclined to testify that Gabe Watson's rescue cert meant that he should have been able to do something to help his wife, backed off once he realized Watson had no real-life rescue experience and very little open water experience.

The Watson case says exactly nothing about the legal liability of a normal good Samaritan with a rescue certification.

 

[JohnnyC]

OK. So don't do what Gabe Watson did, and you'll be fine. Don't fail to take any action at all while your wife and dive buddy drowns with a regulator in her mouth, air in her tank, and perfectly functioning equipment. Don't give 16 different versions of what happened, none of which match the testimony of the only eyewitness. Don't create suspicions that you turned off her air and held her down. Don't sue for insurance coverage and then withdraw the suit because you realize your testimony will incriminate you in your criminal trial. Don't plead guilty to manslaughter.

If Gabe Watson is the best example, the risk is pretty low. Of all the criminal and civil court cases he was involved in, the only ones that went against him were his own suit for insurance money that he withdrew, and the murder rap he beat by pleading guilty to manslaughter.

In fact, the expert who was initially inclined to testify that Gabe Watson's rescue cert meant that he should have been able to do something to help his wife, backed off once he realized Watson had no real-life rescue experience and very little open water experience.

The Watson case says exactly nothing about the legal liability of a normal good Samaritan with a rescue certification.

That's the point. If it requires that much bull**** to find yourself in a situation based on your rescue diver certification, the argument that you would avoid getting the certification to cover your legal bases is silly.

 

[OceanEyes]

When I went through I had to do that. I will give you that it later was probably determined that the lost time doing inneffective CPR was detrimental when compared to teh delay in getting the victim to the shore in a timely fashion. In other words it was better to get them to shore and then CPR rather than CPR on the way in. I think my instructor told me that the agencies view had changed on that matter to comply with your post. Still there was the gear removal on the way in that was very energy demanding. My rescue was some 15 + years ago. Thing do change over time. My cpr training was 5 heart and one breath , that has changed also. You point is well taken though. Even doing only rescue breaths is demanding physically when it comes to repositioning doing the breaths and returning to towing.

I would be most interested to see you present an effective method for performing chest compressions on a person floating on the waters surface. Maybe you could make a video of the technique that you learned when you took your rescue class.

For as long as I’ve been involved in aquatic rescue skill administration and instruction, (going on 45 years now), one of the constant requirements for performing effective CPR is that the victim must be on a stable platform. I know of no means of doing this with a floating victim, nor can I conceive of how the rescuer could maintain a position wherein he or she could have sufficient leverage to perform effective compressions. I’m not trying to be snarky or contrarian, (well maybe a little bit), but would be eager to learn from your experience.

 

[Scraps]

Johnny C--

I don't think the point is relevant to the liability risks for recreational divers who obtain a non-professional rescue diver certification.

Gabe Watson's rescue certification didn't put him in the crosshairs. His numerous suspicious and inexplicable actions attracted attention.

Even so, nobody sued him for his failure to rescue his wife or for attempting to rescue her and botching it. And nobody cited him for negligence. They went after him because they thought he had killed his wife on purpose.

His rescue cert became a non-issue once the potential expert witness for the prosecution got his hands on his dive logs and saw how little real world diving experience he did have.

One of my other hobbies is umpiring baseball. I often read and hear about people worried that umpires will get sued for injuries that occur in games under their jurisdiction. Never seen it happen.

I get it that anybody can sue anybody for anything.

But I think the fear is overblown, and I'm not going to let it keep me from doing things I enjoy, partly because I'm confident I could show that I endeavor to do them in a responsible manner.

Oh wait: I think I mis-read your post. We might actually agree. Never mind.

 

[happy-diver]

Henry Heimlich - Wikipedia

 

[TMHeimer]

Here is my 2bar, but as a warning it will probably be an unpopular opinion.

1. Yes Rescue is a great course (if done correctly) and students can be greatly challenged and they can come away not only learning new skills, but learn something about themselves and their capabilities (often with ego bruised at some point)

2. When to take the course: When you are comfortable at the surface "self rescuing" yourself. Those divers who become flustered dealing with their own issues at the surface, who simply for instance can manage to climb out of their own gear without assistance, perhaps can't find a dropped reg, or deal with an inflator hose being disconnected or any other of the basic skills really aren't ready for Rescue. As with any course the basics from previous courses need to be practiced and consolidated prior to moving forward.

3 Rescue skills like all other skills degrade rapidly with lack of practice. While its not generally possible for people to physically practice the skills, they can mentally run through all the steps. I see this far too often with DM candidates, who might have taken Rescue within the last year, but look blankly when asked to run through "Unresponsive Diver at the Surface for the First time" (Sadly the same applied to Instructor Candidates - but I'm allowed to be less polite with them!) If that person can't manage in a confined water zero stress situation., how will they manage in a stressful OW event?

Someone holding a Rescue card who hasn't kept up to date and mentally prepared, is simply and OW student with a different card

Any diver who uses Rescue as bragging rights is a fool.


As for "Policing" other divers - it's just not possible, and perhaps intervention to another diver may be considered unwelcome - especially if they have more dives than you and (Their ego) thinks they're a more experienced diver.

As an Instructor, if I'm on a fun dive, yes my instinct it to keep an eye out, and yes I will intervene either underwater, or on the surface If I think it's necessary/worthwhile - Yes I've had quiet words with DM's too - But its not possible to police the whole group, and there is a line between caring for other people and enjoying a dive myself

Lots of divers are both selfish in that they concentrate on themselves only, but this is often compounded by the fact, these divers don't have the mental bandwidth to concentrate on anything other than the mechanics of their own diving, despite what their egos think, they haven't progressed to the point where breathing, buoyancy depth control etc are all automatic and require zero thought, allowing them to keep view the bigger picture.

The DM course while good if taught correctly, isn't a magic card. the quick 10 day courses are worthless. It takes a great deal of practice to become a competent DM when guiding, to be able to keep a mental picture of everyone's gas levels, to herd carts, and anticipate problems. People learn more guiding real customers than basic controlled scenarios. Trust me customers are unpredictable, and sometimes its impossible to control the uncontrollable.

As for protecting yourself from possible litigation, Conduct yourself within the limits of your training. Unfortunately we live in an era where people refuse to accept personal responsibility for their actions, demanding that someone else must always be at fault.

Great post. Especially about skills degrading without use. If all you can do is review the rescue material periodically (because physically doing stuff with a buddy may be difficult to arrange, etc.), it's better than nothing. The other 3 DMCs in the DM course I was in had taken Rescue just a month or 2 before. No one assembled the O2 kit perfectly. After that (now our second time doing this), I went to the shop owner and had him go over the process slowly while I wrote it all down. I review this once weekly, in case I ever have to give someone oxygen. I passed on his suggestion I buy a $700 bottle to practice on....

 

[Storker]

Has anyone here been sued, or known someone who's been sued, as a non-professional but highly certified dive buddy for failure to rescue?

Stephen Martin was charged with homicide when his girlfriend died, probably from immersion pulmonary edema: Scuba enthusiast fights extradition to Malta over dive deaths

 

[NAM001]

I would be most interested to see you present an effective method for performing chest compressions on a person floating on the waters surface. Maybe you could make a video of the technique that you learned when you took your rescue class.

For as long as I’ve been involved in aquatic rescue skill administration and instruction, (going on 45 years now), one of the constant requirements for performing effective CPR is that the victim must be on a stable platform. I know of no means of doing this with a floating victim, nor can I conceive of how the rescuer could maintain a position wherein he or she could have sufficient leverage to perform effective compressions. I’m not trying to be snarky or contrarian, (well maybe a little bit), but would be eager to learn from your experience.

I have no idea why we did it. Perhaps it was to show how difficult and overall ineffective it is to do it. perhaps it was to add task loading to the problem to make up for what could not be generated for training. I passed. I would never want to even try again.