So, what is the point of AOW???

[daniel f aleman]

............................

 

[MikeFerrara]

A little smug? There have been a few I really wanted to kick off my boat. And I don't mean tell them to get off. I mean kick them until they fall off the boat.

I guess I can believe that.

What does price have to do with it? Personally, I'm not in it for the money. That's what I have my full time job for. I teach because I enjoy diving and I like helping others enjoy it. My course is pretty darn cheap and I think the fact that I'm not doing it for the money makes me a better teacher because I'm not afraid to tell someone they have to repeat a pool session or that I'm just not going to certify them.

I think the "value" of traiing is part of the problem in this business...and it is a business. There might be some folks who have enough money who teach for fun but there are those who try to do this for a living and it just doesn't pay enough to attract good people. When you're lucky, and only when you're lucky, you get what you pay for. A $2/hour instructor is likely a deal at half the price.

Still, if you want to offer dive instruction as charity, that's your business.

I wouldn't even recommend GUE. I only know a couple GUE instructors and I think they're "poopyheads" so I would never recommend them. I don't recommend agencies, I recommend instructors.

I've met a few GUE instructors and dived with a few GUE trained divers and I don't have any complaints.

I've watched a couple of GUE instructors teach and I would recommend them.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Which brings up some interesting points of implementation ...

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I believe, Sparticle, that you took your OW class as part of a college curriculum, yes? How did the questions above apply to your class?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I've written a lot on this subject so I'll try to be briefe.

How long should an OW class take?

time isn't the issue but I had about 40 hours in my class.

- How many hours of pool time should be involved?

I started with about 5 which is about average around here and fits with the way I was taught to teach. As a new instructor teaching fo another shop I got ripped once because it took me 6 hours to get 6 students through the 5 confined water modules with no DM and in a new pool with messed up chemicals and about 5ft of vis. LOL

Due to OW dives that were the dives from hell I gradually increased pool time to about 15 hours for a class of six or less. In a perfect world I would like a few more but that worked ok for most divers.

You didn't ask but I need about 10 hours in the classroom...assuming students have read the text before coming to class. That 10 hours is presenting critical information that the text omits, elaboration on the text, answering questions and administering tests.

- How many dives should be involved?

I planned two FULL days for OW diving. Before the end of the class the students had to plan and conduct a dive in buddy teams with me just following and watching . If I had to help or if they tore things up, they needed to do more dives. Additionally, these were long dives...no 20 minute dives here.

- How much should it cost?

I was providing equipment, gas, pool, student materials and about 40 hours of my time. If I was teaching that class today, I wouldn't teach it for less than about $1000/student. Come on! just to rent equipment around here it's $50/day or more. That would be $100 for the OW weekend and $25 (half a day) for each of the 5 pool sessions. That's $225 for just gear rental and we didn't even get into gas fills yet. I would have been better off just renting the gear and letting someone else teach the class. My cost on a PADI crew pack was about $50. ($275). Pool ran me about $50/hour and we still haven't paid me, burdened the class with a percentage of the shop building or insurance costs, my time, air fills or my travel time and costs.

I really do like to teach but I had my fill of donatng my time to sell PADI pics and equipment for the manufacturers. All these folks strike me as folks who can fend for themselves and don't really need any charity. Hey, is this Amway or what?

 

[Nick_W]

I think the "value" of traiing is part of the problem in this business...and it is a business. There might be some folks who have enough money who teach for fun but there are those who try to do this for a living and it just doesn't pay enough to attract good people. When you're lucky, and only when you're lucky, you get what you pay for. A $2/hour instructor is likely a deal at half the price.

The biggest problem is there are too many instructors competing for a limited number of students. The strict guidelines and standards shouldn't be for OW and AOW classes, but for instructor courses.

 

[MikeFerrara]

The biggest problem is there are too many instructors competing for a limited number of students. The strict guidelines and standards shouldn't be for OW and AOW classes, but for instructor courses.

I agree except that instructor courses teach the candidate how to teach. The material and standards are closely tied to what's taught in the student level courses. Also it's the student level courses are where the instructor candidate learned to dive. It's hard to teach what you don't know.

 

[Nick_W]

I agree except that instructor courses teach the candidate how to teach. The material and standards are closely tied to what's taught in the student level courses. Also it's the student level courses are where the instructor candidate learned to dive. It's hard to teach what you don't know.

There's also a "little" diving involved. At least I know there was for my course. Now, that seems like a pretty good opportunity to weed out not only the bad divers, but also those who have the diver factory mentality. Unfortunately, there are some instructor trainers out there who have adopted that mentality and are passing it on to their students.

 

[MikeFerrara]

There's also a "little" diving involved. At least I know there was for my course. Now, that seems like a pretty good opportunity to weed out not only the bad divers, but also those who have the diver factory mentality. Unfortunately, there are some instructor trainers out there who have adopted that mentality and are passing it on to their students.

There wasn't any diving in my PADI IDC. It was mostly teaching/demonstrating OW level skills while kneeling. Sure we had to demo a "lotus" type hover but the CD never really seen me dive. The IE was evaluating you while teaching those same skills.

My IANTD instructor course was a different. I had to dive.

 

[oceancrest67]

For what it's worth, the recommended max depths for PADI are; 60' for OW divers, 100' for AOW divers and 130' for divers with deep training or experience. A diver who does OW / AOW back to back is not recommended good to go to 130'! Some AOW deep training dives are only 61' deep!

An AOW diver who has plenty of dives 80-100' deep with well trained buddies should be ok to go deeper than 100' with well trained buddies, but it is up to the individual to dive within their capabilities and everyone has different capabilities.

Well said, hopefully you remember the other important things better than the recommended max depths.

Any diver who does the back to back is carrying the AOW card while having less than a dozen certified dives; less than a dozen dives is usually a fumbling newb. Since the SG went down, how many AOW divers have had incidents there?

I ought to have corrected myself regarding OW and AOW...you are correct in specifying the PADI standards for OW and AOW. By back to back...for me it was not some straight run through...I did take time to dive within the same year with OW and then proceeded to AOW. The year after, I completed my Rescue...and then proceeded to work on my DM...and this was 14 years ago. I am now working on my TDI advanced wreck and trimix courses. I have taken plenty of time to read and gain experience.

In all humility, we are all newbies at new stages...I tend to have high expectations of myself and those I dive with...but I have come to learn that we are all different and that we all come from different backgrounds. I consider myself a newbie cave diver even after completing intro cave 4 years ago...I still need to take full cave. I simply do not get down to FL enough to really spend the time and money gaining experience. The last time I was down cave diving was in 2006...and my new gear, new set of doubles etc..did not trim well and my bouyancy was all over the place. It was a humbling experience but well worth it.

 

[scubasurf1990]

i too have been looking into getting the AOW only because here in southern california there are a few dive sites where the DM requires it such as diving the oil rigs and diving the drop offs. I kno that most of the time is is only required because the currents are way too strong and you need to be trained to handle them, or because u need excellent bouyancy control, like with the oil rigs where there is no sea floor for 300 ft.

 

[Vicente]

To drag this thread back on topic, let's differentiate:

What dive operators want you to DOCUMENT
From
What you want to LEARN

If you want to learn more advanced diving, seek out the most knowledgable instructor. When you are in the class dig for criticism not validation. "Yeah, yeah I know the things I did right, what did I do WRONG?" One of the better instructors I know usually spends a bit of time video-taping the students. Then later he can run the tape back and point out the good and bad. It's one thing to be told your mistakes, when you see them it's driven home.

I ended my "advanced" certification classes at YMCA Gold Master Diver. But never quit learning, class or not your buddies can often help you improve IF YOU ASK them, most people will never offer up critiques unless asked.