Devils Throat TAKE LIGHT

[Firefyter]

And what have your posts offered. Absolutely nothing. Mike has offered sound advice for those who wish to listen. If one choses not to follow it, fine, but don't try to disuade others from learning.

Amen. Isn't it amazing how folks with next to no training want to bellyache about advice given from a very highly qualified instructor with lots of experience in different environments? Kinda makes me wonder why they bother taking classes at all, if they already know more than the guys who have been there, done that.

 

[TSandM]

After reading Mike, you and some others I realize that more concern and prep should go into these tyes of dives.

That's super. That's all I (or Mike, I suspect as well) want to accomplish, is to make people stop and think.

 

[pilot fish]

Scubadoo, I saw formations, configurations, on this dive site that I saw no place else. It was, to me, an enthralling dive. It is, of course, not to be taken lightly but if you are experienced it is a great site to add to your dive memories.

I fail to see where Mike's posts are unsolicited or uninformed? They may be a bit intense and more than the OP had in mind, but this is a public forum so anyone is allowed to post so out goes the unsolicited idea. As for uninformed, I see you have less than 50 dives. Have you ever tried to tell a teenager that one day they might understand? Well, it usually doesn't work and they end up resenting you for even saying something like that.

All that said, this thread is going nowhere now. It's turning personal and zero learning is taking place at this point. I agree with Mike's posts but they are IMHO getting a little heavy handed now.

For the record, I have no interest in diving this specific site and have turned it down when offered in the past. I see no more at 130 feet than I see at 40 feet.

 

[michaelp68]

That's super. That's all I (or Mike, I suspect as well) want to accomplish, is to make people stop and think.

You and Mike accomplished that goal with me. You have my appreciation. Thanks.

To the OP, I'm glad your wife lived through this and is recovering.

 

[Charlie99]

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that this dive site should be reclassified as a cave dive and cave dive training required to do this dive safely?

It already IS classified as a cave dive my most agencies. IIRC, PADI's definition of cavern is 1) daylight visible, and 2) total distance to the surface (length of overhead + depth) of less than 130'. Devil's Throat doesn't meet the defintion of cavern and is therefore considered by PADI (and I'm pretty sure virtually all other agencies) to be a cave dive.

One can argue whether or not this definition is overly conservative, but there isn't any need to "reclassify" Devil's Throat as a cave dive. It already is defined that way by most agencies.

Your second question was whether or not cave dive training should be required to do this dive. There aren't any scuba police. I can go dive any cave I want to, trained or not. The real question is whether or not the dive ops should drop non-cave trained or non-overhead trained divers onto the dive spot. Again, there aren't any scuba police, so they get to make the choice.


OTOH, it would be good for the dive ops to make sure that the divers have been fully informed of what sort of dive it is, and that the dive ops recommend to the divers that they really think hard about whether or not they want to go do this dive.

As a minimum, I'd like to see a special waiver and info sheet issued for Devil's Throat. My attitude is that divers are adults and if we wish to exceed our training, we have the right to do so. But I also think that a lot of divers go do this dive without thinking much about it, and underestimate the risks involved.

 

[MikeFerrara]

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that this dive site should be reclassified as a cave dive and cave dive training required to do this dive safely?

I don't know about that. You keep talking about how it's classified and what's required. Why don't we talk about what the diver sees as the real risks and what they do to manage those risks rather than discussing what someone else requires of you.

The world is full of caves, oceans, lakes and rivers and the majority of it is uncontrolled. What counts is what the diver thinks and decides.

I think the correct "classification", if we need one, would be to say that it's a coral cave system. Regardless of the exact configuration it is an overhead environment at least in places and therefor has certain things in common with other overhead environments.

As a practical matter, I think we would be well off to consider the general hazards (those associated with being under water and which all divers are, in theory, taught to consider) and the specific hazards which are those that are unique to the environment. What are some? Depth, dark, overhead obstructions, restrictions...maybe others?

What are some other things we might consider? So far we've only addressed our own preservation. what about preservation of the environment itself? What do the walls inside that tunnel look like and what did they look like before it became a popular dive site? What skills do we need to minimize the damage that we do?

I still think Lynne put it best. You can bet on nothing happening to you, just follow the DM through and probably be right...but you might be wrong. the dive that the OP's wife had doesn't sound like any fun at all to me and I don't want to do one like that. Do you? It's clear that, though the DM got her up and she lived, he did not prevent the incident from happening. Is your goal to prevent it?

I think all a dive op should require is money. The steps you take for your own well being and the well being of the environment that you dive in is another matter.

 

[DallasNewbie]

First I would like to thank those of you who have dispassionately expressed the reality of the dangers of diving. It is hard for many recreational divers to hear, and many (even close friends of mine) chose to pretend that diving is safe without the proper precautions. IMO (see username) the OP and his wife did just about everything wrong, and it's a miracle that everyone is still alive. Yes, diving with a DM and captain who know CPR is a good idea, but I pray to God that I'll never have to rely on that. With lungs full of water and a rapid ascent from 130', I wouldn't count on anyone surviving. The worst part of this is that it could have been prevented. The OP says none of this would have happened if they had lights. That's true enough. The drowned diver would not have taken the wrong turn in the dark if she had a light. But what if that light burned out? Take two! What if an o-ring leak? What if she goes OOA? Looses a mask, get entangled? My point is that if you only plan for previous failures, then the odds are not good for you surviving the next one.

I love Cozumel. I have not nearly the experience there as many of you do, but I have two stories from different trips that in my mind offer insight to this event. Some of you will not understand how these other "incidents" are relevant, but others will understand immediately.

On the way home from our first trip to Cozumel, we met a young man who had an epileptic seizure underwater and spit out his regulator. He aspirated water before his father in law was able to drag him to the surface unconcious. His life was saved by heroic measures on the part of the crew, and hospital staff. He had been a certified diver for over a year, and he was shocked when the treated doctor told him that he was an idiot for thinking that he could dive with epilepsy.

On a recent trip, our group shared a boat with a single diver. He was a medical doctor, and seemed intelligent enough on the surface. Underwater, he was bouncing all around, from ten feet above the group to ten feet below (on 40-60ft dives). He was also frequently out of sight of the DM and group. Back on the boat after the first dive, he asked, "Does anyone know what our bottom time was?". He had no computer, no watch, no tables. He had been certified for many years, and dived all over the world (mostly one day at a time while on business trips), and he didn't know any of the symptoms of DCS. Does anyone who has been to CZM think that the DM kept him out of the water on the second dive?

We dive with DO that is highly respected on this board. That doesn't preclude the above from happening on our dives. The DM on the above dive is also highly respected, and has been complimented previously in this thread. In spite of these events, we only dive with this DO, and we request the DM when available. I have no qualms about diving with either -- but I refuse to place the responsibility for my life and safety in their (or anyone's) hands.

None of us knows what we don't know. If your ego prevents you from admiting that, then participating in dangerous sports probably aren't fa good idea.

 

[MikeFerrara]

After reading Mike, you and some others I realize that more concern and prep should go into these tyes of dives.

That's super. That's all I (or Mike, I suspect as well) want to accomplish, is to make people stop and think.

Thinking is good. The results aren't always what we want but I think it's best to give it a shot anyhow. LOL but yes, if I had my way, every diver would not only survive but have a great time too.

 

[ggunn]

It already IS classified as a cave dive my most agencies. IIRC, PADI's definition of cavern is 1) daylight visible, and 2) total distance to the surface (length of overhead + depth) of less than 130'. Devil's Throat doesn't meet the defintion of cavern and is therefore considered by PADI (and I'm pretty sure virtually all other agencies) to be a cave dive.

As a point of information only, have you ever been to Punta Sur? I don't have a dog in this hunt, but some of what has been discussed in here is speculation by folks who have not seen or done the dive in question. I do not mean to challenge any of the good advice and information posted here, except to say that it would carry more weight from someone who has specific experience with the Devil's Throat dive.

One thing - I have done that dive, and I do not remember any part of it to be particularly tight or totally dark; I am somewhat claustrophobic, and I am pretty sure I would have remembered that. I hear that there are various "false throats" at Punta Sur, but the dive I went on exited at about 120 feet and I saw the white cross shaped sponge on the way back up.

Also, all other points notwithstanding, the advice to bring lights on that dive (as well as any others where swimthroughs are involved) is good advice. Another is from me: if you are going through a swimthrough and there are people behind you (especially mildly claustrophobic me) please DON'T stop.

 

[Scott101]

Does anyone have the stats on the number of divers that pass thru Devils Throat per year versus the number of people injured or dead at Devils Throat? Just for a statistical look at the dangers associated with this dive.

Personally, I went out there once, didn't want to do the Throat, the OP brought another DM to take the ones that did thru it, and had a kick ***** time on the reef. Wanted to go back this year but the OP saw that while a couple said they wanted to do it, the OP clearly saw that they couldn't so we didn't go.