PADI or RAID for advanced

[CapnBloodbeard]

Hi all,

I did a thread search but couldn't find anything, though I'm sure it's been asked on here before (this might be the wrong sub).

I did my PADI OW a few years back, have about 35 dives under my belt, I figure now's a good time to get my advanced (I'm actually glad I didn't do the 'advanced immediately after open' thing that so many shops push....).

Looking around at local courses, there's PADI OW, typically for about $500-$550 (AUD), so I know how that looks - 3 shores dives, 2 boat dives, including mandatory nav/deep and 3 electives, usually peak performance buoyancy and 2 others

I noticed RAID Advanced 35, which seems to have 6 dives plus a pool session - although it's up to $750-800

So - yes, I know people could argue the relative benefits of different agencies until the cows come home so this is probably a risky question - but is the additional RAID time worth the difference? It looks like a more comprehensive course - is it worth doing this over PADI? It is significantly more expensive, but if it's justifiable then I can do that. If it leaves me with more solid training and skills than the PADI would, then that can only help me. If it helps, I'm not entirely convinced that my OW provider was very good

 

[RainPilot]

The exit standards for the RAID Advanced 35 are a bit higher than the PADI AOW so, theoretically, you should get a better skill foundation from the RAID course if both are taught only to standard.

Of course, that is not always the case. Individual instructors will add in their own "extras" and that could make all the difference. Personally, I believe that RAID's 2x deep dives vs PADI single deep dive, plus the compulsory buoyancy dive (which is not the same as PADI Peak Performance Buoyancy, but focused on getting the student to the RAID OW standard (all skills done neutrally buoyant, in trim, and motionless hovering) for those who came through a different agency for OW) make a pretty big difference in results.

Underwater SMB deployment is a compulsory skill for RAID, I believe that it is optional on PADI AOW but by the same token I imagine most decent PADI instructors would cover that skill regardless, it being a pretty important skill to get fully comfortable with.

The next question would be what you plan to do afterwards? If you are planning to do some deeper dives, the next RAID course (Deep40) has the option of helium for recreational trimix diving, while PADI will get you onto helium after 50m (65m course). Of course, that may be of no interest to you but it is worth mentioning.

My suggestion would be to go have a coffee with the 2 instructors that would actually be teaching YOU and ask them both the question you asked here. Bad mouthing the other agency, trying to sell through fear etc ("your card won't be recognised, you'll die if you do the course with them" etc) or a lack of knowledge of what the other industry practices are would be huge red flags to me. Ask what happens if you aren't comfortable with a skill during the course. If they answer with a reasonable reassurance, along with what the remedial action plan would be, fine. If they give you a variation of "don't worry, everyone passes, the course is super easy and you don't have to do all the skills anyway" then I would run, not walk, away.

@paultoomer is on here every so often, he may be able to steer you in the direction of a good Australian instructor, regardless of agency. @wetb4igetinthewater is also someone who has done a fair bit of research on RAID and is/was a PADI instructor IIRC. To be honest, at this level, the agency differences aren't super massive, but the instructor attitude is. If they will:

1. be kind, patient and careful, while not allowing critical skills to be missed
2. focus on your safety short term
   1. not pushing too many dives to shorten the course days
   2. diving in bad visibility because they are in a hurry etc
3. focus on your safety long term
   1. don't pass you unless you show mastery
   2. ensure your buoyancy control and emergency procedures are spot on
   3. make sure you can deploy an SMB without getting tangled
   4. make sure your situational awareness is adequate
      1. buddy awareness
      2. NDL
      3. gas monitoring etc

then you will most likely be fine with them and agency really does become secondary at that point.

Hope that wall of text helps, here it is 0645 and I am not even halfway through my first cup of coffee so I really shouldn't be behind a keyboard. Good luck with the course whichever way you end up going, it'll open a whole new bunch of really cool places to dive and types of dive to do.

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

Well @RainPilot that was a very impressive post for pre-coffee! Much appreciated!

I have done SMB deployment at safety-stop depth, but I'm rubbish at it - because it wasn't taught in my OW (and as you know, teaching a compliance check doesn't necessarily grant you skills) - I picked it up later in a rusty diver course.

Just clarifying what you were saying about the relative buoyancy courses - could you clarify your paragraph a bit more there? Are you saying that you think RAID is a more skilled buoyancy course?

Buoyancy and trim is something I'm still finding frustrating at the moment - I also plan on buying my BCD before I do this course (I was planning on buying it anyway)

I'm based in Melbourne so exploring instructors down here, hoping to get it done in the next month or two while the water is still vaguely tolerable (haven't dived down here yet) prior to heading to the Great Barrier Reef later this year.

 

[RainPilot]

I have now finished coffee #1 and coffee #2 is just about right, so here goes....

Just clarifying what you were saying about the relative buoyancy courses - could you clarify your paragraph a bit more there? Are you saying that you think RAID is a more skilled buoyancy course?

All RAID courses are required to be completed in neutral buoyancy, so there is never any kneeling etc for skills. That means that there actually isn't a "Buoyancy Course", as such, like PADI PPB course. Instead, every course has a dive where the student's buoyancy is assessed and then remedial action can be taken as necessary. In Advanced 35 there is a specific dive, since many/most of the new RAID crossovers happen at this level (did a dodgy OW on holiday, enjoyed it and now want to continue with diving kind f thing)

I believe that RAID emphasis on buoyancy (as an agency entire) is far ahead of most mainstream agencies.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

.... but the instructor attitude is. If they will:
...
2. diving in bad visibility because they are in a hurry etc.

Weeeeeelllll, I do teach a limited-viz/night with navigation package only in the months of April, May, and June with the algae blooms. Why? For the bad visibility! This is a 1:1 course for for safety reasons.

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

I have now finished coffee #1 and coffee #2 is just about right, so here goes....



All RAID courses are required to be completed in neutral buoyancy, so there is never any kneeling etc for skills. That means that there actually isn't a "Buoyancy Course", as such, like PADI PPB course. Instead, every course has a dive where the student's buoyancy is assessed and then remedial action can be taken as necessary. In Advanced 35 there is a specific dive, since many/most of the new RAID crossovers happen at this level (did a dodgy OW on holiday, enjoyed it and now want to continue with diving kind f thing)

I believe that RAID emphasis on buoyancy (as an agency entire) is far ahead of most mainstream agencies.

Thanks, that helps.

Yeah, I remember kneeling on the bottom to do my OW....first i was underweighted so I couldn't stay on the bottom, then he overweighted me to keep me on the bottom but didn't help me with working out my weights moving forwards, so I'm sure I'm still weighted incorrectly despite a bit of trial and error!

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

Weeeeeelllll, I do teach a limited-viz/night with navigation package only in the months of April, May, and June with the algae blooms. Why? For the bad visibility! This is a 1:1 course for for safety reasons.

....because it gets too hard to kick if you have TWO students grabbing your ankles?

 

[Pressurehead]

What about The RAID Explorer 30 course? Good first step after OW.
From this Mob in your area : Snorkel And Dive Safari Altona Beach | Snorkeling & Diving

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

....because it gets too hard to kick if you have TWO students grabbing your ankles?

Haha! No, just that I want to dedicate the entire time with one student to get maximal learning. Of course, viz has to be at least a few feet. If it is only a few inches, that's not going to work.

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

What about The RAID Explorer 30 course? Good first step after OW.
From this Mob in your area : Snorkel And Dive Safari Altona Beach | Snorkeling & Diving

appreciate the suggestion, though between the two, I suspect it might be worth the extra $150 for the Explorer 35 - extra pool + open dive, so bit more training, do you think?