Long-hose in the time of COVID-19

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So, at least for 2018, the majority are from second and third hand sources.

Which again, doesn't mean they aren't valuable or useful data, but doesn't make them empirical by anyone's definition.
I've done the search from the individual reports.

Total reported incidents = 242

58 (24%) Coast Guard
7 (3%) RLNI
2 (<1%) combined Coast Guard & RNLI
2 ((<1%) Media
173 (71%) Direct reports (I think that qualifies as a majority.)

The joy of statistics.
 
I've done the search from the individual reports.

Total reported incidents = 242

58 (24%) Coast Guard
7 (3%) RLNI
2 (<1%) combined Coast Guard & RNLI
2 ((<1%) Media
173 (71%) Direct reports (I think that qualifies as a majority.)

The joy of statistics.
BSAC reports
2018 - 160 (46%, of course, assuming that 100% of the reports are direct individual reports) (I think that qualifies as a minority)

Coastguard
2018 - 80

Media
2018 - 40

Other
2018 - 18

RNLI
2018 - 45

The joy of statistics
 
BSAC reports
2018 - 160 (46%, of course, assuming that 100% of the reports are direct individual reports) (I think that qualifies as a minority)

Coastguard
2018 - 80

Media
2018 - 40

Other
2018 - 18

RNLI
2018 - 45

The joy of statistics
Garth did say his data was taken from graphs and might not be accurate. Your using his BSAC only as the total.
BSAC Incident Report 2018:
In the calendar year of 2018 we have recorded 242 incidents (Figure 2)
 
Garth did say his data was taken from graphs and might not be accurate.
Sure, the exact numbers may be slightly off, but I can't imagine that bsac would be publishing graphs that are significantly disproportionate to their data.
 
Garth did say his data was taken from graphs and might not be accurate. Your using his BSAC only as the total.

I looked at the bar Graph and guesstimated some of the values, as they related to the graph and the axes.


I think you also need to look at what is reported. The final report breaks the individual reports in to sub group, e.g. DCI, surface, equipment.

The Coastguard will report a lifeboat or Helicopter being tasked to recover a diver suffering suspected DCI. They will have no knowledge of what the circumstances where surrounding the suspected DCI. Similarly, they will know of a a lifeboat being tasked to find a missing diver on the surface or a boat with engine trouble.
Those incidents that break down what happens under water are more likely to be data from the divers involved. This information will be either from a BSAC incident report, or possibly from the coroners report.

Vague reports such as a "Deep sea diver ran out of oxygen from his bottle", are generally press reports

Having been involved myself. The statement the Police collected from me is the same statement that was on my incident report.
You could argue that my BSAC is not valid because it is a BSAC report. But it was valid for the Police and the coroner. So I don't understand the distinction.
 
Since it seems like we're never going to agree on if something is empirical or not, let's go back to a more fundamental question:

if you were going to use data to "prove" that panicked divers that are completely out of air don't often go for the reg they know is working (the one in the mouth), what data would you actually need to do that?

If we were going to test that (I might even be inclined to say empirically test it), one would need to take a large enough group of divers, representative of different skill levels, training backgrounds, and geographical locations and force them out of air without their knowledge to observe their behavior. Ok, that test is never going to pass an ethics review board, so I think we're safe to say that test will never happen.

If we were then going to step back and say "well, the test we want to do to actually test our hypothesis isn't feasible", we would be left only looking at reports of incidents that have occurred. To make any sort of claims, we would want that group of reports to be large, representative of different skill levels, training backgrounds, and geographical locations and only look at ones where a panicked diver that believed they were completely out of air and assess their behavior. Someone with a freeflow that allows a "casual" swap to an alternate or has a tank that's running low and swaps preemptively, etc doesn't help. You're trying to determine the "oh ****, I need air NOW" reaction.

The discussion would be much simpler if we actually had the empirical data from the first test. No doubt we could all come up with something in the test procedure that we didn't agree with, but at least there would be something solid to poke at.



If we're limited to just after-the-fact reports of what happened, regardless of if we agree that they're "empirical" or not, for it to even come close to "proving" the hypothesis, we would want to see a sufficiently large group of reports, representative of different skill levels, training backgrounds, and geographical locations made up of only reports of panicked, completely out of air divers. I am not convinced that the bsac reports check even half of those boxes. If you start getting rid of boxes, you're narrowing the applicability of the data. That's fine, as long as that is understood.

That all comes back to my assertion that the data is not empirical and it is not broadly applicable, however, for the narrow application, it may be just fine.
 
+1 for the RNLI.

I simply can't watch the Cruel Sea - Penlee Lifeboat Disaster documentary without becoming an emotional wreck! Proper heroes!


I remember the loss being on the news.
A very difficult program to watch. The helicopter pilots comment when he could hear the call from the coastguard, and no reply from the lifeboat. Re-fueling and going back to search for the lifeboat and crew.
 
I remember the loss being on the news.
A very difficult program to watch. The helicopter pilots comment when he could hear the call from the coastguard, and no reply from the lifeboat. Re-fueling and going back to search for the lifeboat and crew.
Yes, the original radio transmissions are very difficult to listen to. When they interview the surviving brother who said that the Coxwain wouldn't allow him on the rescue as he didn't want their mother to loose both sons in one night. He kinda knew they weren't coming back.

I went down to Mousehole last year and visited the old lifeboat station. Flowers are still left on the railings outside. Nice to know people haven't forgotten the bravery of these simple volunteers.

Sorry everyone for going drastically off topic. I would however urge anyone to watch it and remember what some people do to keep us safe out on the water.
 
If we were going to test that (I might even be inclined to say empirically test it), one would need to take a large enough group of divers, representative of different skill levels, training backgrounds, and geographical locations and force them out of air without their knowledge to observe their behavior. Ok, that test is never going to pass an ethics review board, so I think we're safe to say that test will never happen.
It’s a pity the HSE study isn’t available on-line anymore as that’s exactly what they did. I agree it wouldn’t happen now, we’ve become too PC.
 

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