Unstaffed moored boat during dives?

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I was surprised to see this raised as an issue in these parts!

Here on Grand Turk there are five operators out there every day and only one of them ever leaves a watch on the moored boats during dives- the rest never do! Is there a reg regarding this? I have no idea and I doubt that most operators would know either.
The diving here is great and most of the operators are nice people, but the operations are Jurassic park and there is little or no oversight.
There is NO nitrox or any other gas available except air (with the exception of my personal compressor and nitrox stick)
There are no tanks of any type available other than AL80's and a few 63's.
There are no VIP/ Hydro facilities and AFAIK the local operators simply use their AL80's for 10 years and then discard- that's what one of them told me!
No dive retail, equipment service etc.
It helps to be self sufficient but there are limits to what one person can do and that is why I eventually gave up on rebreather diving here- it was a logistical nightmare. Such a shame because the diving is very much like Grand Cayman and absolutely tailor made for a technical operation if someone was prepared to jump through the draconian legislations hoops required for an expat to set up any business.
 
It’s a much more regulated business in The Cayman Islands. To be honest with the tons of ops that are here there are less than five that I would not recommend. I am not a fan of some of the reviews especially on TA but find that the forums are more helpful. Some of the dive ops that save money cutting corners use some to pay for reviews. Also repeat customers often don’t write reviews as time goes by and many ops respect that and never push it. Just read a review on TA about a restaurant-it was ⭐️ which is terrible. Turns out the folks were mad because they drove out to it and it was closed!!! They had no experience with it but gave it a rating that could prevent others from going and pull it way down in standings. A little dive op here that is very well respected was getting bad reviews. Turned out they were written by an employees recently dumped girlfriend. She was belittling his service on the boat. Knew all the right stuff to say as a local DM. Luckily for them she got drunk and spilled the beans at a local bar one night. Reviews are scary sometimes
 
It’s a much more regulated business in The Cayman Islands. To be honest with the tons of ops that are here there are less than five that I would not recommend. I am not a fan of some of the reviews especially on TA but find that the forums are more helpful. Some of the dive ops that save money cutting corners use some to pay for reviews. Also repeat customers often don’t write reviews as time goes by and many ops respect that and never push it. Just read a review on TA about a restaurant-it was ⭐️ which is terrible. Turns out the folks were mad because they drove out to it and it was closed!!! They had no experience with it but gave it a rating that could prevent others from going and pull it way down in standings. A little dive op here that is very well respected was getting bad reviews. Turned out they were written by an employees recently dumped girlfriend. She was belittling his service on the boat. Knew all the right stuff to say as a local DM. Luckily for them she got drunk and spilled the beans at a local bar one night. Reviews are scary sometimes
Interesting thread as it raises the issues of "government laws" vs "marketing association rules".

Does CITA have any power to define and enforce laws? Or do they just make up best practice rules that all of their members must follow?
Is it legal to operate as a non CITA operation?

Did the dive op break a law or ignore a rule that did not apply to it?

Is the person on board a government law or a marketing rule?
 
Interesting thread as it raises the issues of "government laws" vs "marketing association rules".

Does CITA have any power to define and enforce laws? Or do they just make up best practice rules that all of their members must follow?
Is it legal to operate as a non CITA operation?

Did the dive op break a law or ignore a rule that did not apply to it?

Is the person on board a government law or a marketing rule?

I think that most Cayman dive ops are required to follow the CITA rules by their insurance provider - or at least I have heard that in the past. So the CITA "rules" are not required by law but they are fairly common practices across Cayman.
 
I think that most Cayman dive ops are required to follow the CITA rules by their insurance provider - or at least I have heard that in the past. So the CITA "rules" are not required by law but they are fairly common practices across Cayman.
Makes sense if you are a member of CITA that your insurance would want you to follow their best practice rules. But if CITA membership is optional, and a dive op is not a member, then the rules have no application. They are rules for someone else

I recently became aware of a similar situation in the wine industry for wine producers. There are government laws and then additional wine industry marketing association rules. If you choose to join the marketing association you had to follow their rules. These were rules and not laws. Joining the marketing association was not mandatory. As long as the wine producers followed the government laws they were fine. They simply gave up the advertising power of the marketing association.
 
Does CITA have any power to define and enforce laws? Or do they just make up best practice rules that all of their members must follow?
CITA regulations are rules, and there is no enforcement action that can be taken, aside from being expelled from CITA, and whatever negative publicity that were to generate.

Is it legal to operate as a non CITA operation?
Yes, there are some that do.

Did the dive op break a law or ignore a rule that did not apply to it?

The laws here are a bit fragmented, and it's hard to find them sometimes. For laws that pertain to us, we have the general penal code, and marine conservation laws. These are enforceable with arrest, fines and other penalties.

There are Port Authority laws, which are crimes punishable by sort sort of penalty, and then there are Port Authority rules, which are sort of ambiguous. The former have the term "is guilty of an offense" at the end of each section.

The rule for having a topside lookout is under the section "Rules for Dive Boats" but lacks the term "is guilty of an offense" if you fail to comply with it, nor does it have a penalty. The statement is simply "There must be one person on board to act as a look-out when a vessel has divers or snorkelers in the water."


I think that most Cayman dive ops are required to follow the CITA rules by their insurance provider - or at least I have heard that in the past. So the CITA "rules" are not required by law but they are fairly common practices across Cayman.

There's no insurance requirement to comply with CITA. At least not in the dealings I've had with the agents, and I've been invoiced with Divetech's business insurance for the past 3 years. They've never even once asked about it.

One of our largest competitors is insured, but not a member of CITA.

Really it boils down to an owner's desire to be a safe operation or not. Some do, some don't.

Tony
 
There's no insurance requirement to comply with CITA.
Sounds like CITA doesn't have force of law, but if you read your policy carefully, it will say somewhere in the terms and conditions that All Regulations of your Regulatory Authority must be complied with.

For us it meant that if we were in non-compliance with the terms of our COI (Specifically our COI, because I asked) than we were out of compliance with our insurance. Would that have meant we weren't insured?

Maybe.
 
...There's no insurance requirement [for a lookout on the boat]. At least not in the dealings I've had with them, and I've been invoiced with Divetech's business insurance for the past 3 years. They've never even once asked about it....Tony

Interesting, but what about the antipathy toward solo diving in Cayman? Is that an insurance issue or a cultural issue - or something else like "just complying with the CITA recommendations"?

Disclaimer: I am not a solo diver and I am not interested in diving alone - but I have encountered certified solo divers in other parts of the world that say they haven't experienced as much resistance to the practice as seems common in Cayman.

We know that the policies against solo diving are not universal in Cayman because some folks have posted here on SB that there were able to rent tanks in the Cayman islands and dive solo - usually with solo certification and an alternate air supply.

I am lucky to be married to my dive buddy and confident that we will look out for each other during our occasional, recreational dives, but if I were a more expert, hardcore diver without a regular travel/dive buddy - and certified, equipped, and experienced as a solo diving - I might prefer going it alone rather than being paired up with complete strangers of varying degrees of ability.

I know that @drrich2 just returned from a trip to Bonaire and he is certified solo so I would like to hear his current thoughts on this issue? One obvious difference between GC and Bonaire is that you get many more general tourists and occasional divers on GC that I am sure have varying degrees of ability and experience - while Bonaire is more likely to attract dedicated divers - but how about the Sister Islands? Divers that head to Brac and LC are usually more experienced and looking for a dedicated dive trip, in my experience anyway, but some of the dive ops in the Sister Islands also do not permit solo diving - but a few others do.

Just curious!
 
Sounds like CITA doesn't have force of law, but if you read your policy carefully, it will say somewhere in the terms and conditions that All Regulations of your Regulatory Authority must be complied with.

For us it meant that if we were in non-compliance with the terms of our COI (Specifically our COI, because I asked) than we were out of compliance with our insurance. Would that have meant we weren't insured?

Maybe.

Who knows. It's not an issue for us as we comply completely with CITA, occasionally to the chagrin of our customers, and sometimes we lose business as a result.

Is CITA a regulatory authority? Or simply an association of members? On their website, they state they are "a non-profit association which represents its membership of just over 250 tourism related private businesses in the Cayman Islands." Doesn't say anywhere they are there to govern, although it does say members must comply with their rules. But we don't have to be a member.... I suppose it would take a court to decide.

Last year we switched insurance providers, and in the meetings, I specifically asked, many times, what were the issues that could make us non-compliant. They were actually most concerned with our mooring inspection protocol than anything else.

Interesting, what about the antipathy toward solo diving in Cayman? Is that an insurance issue or a cultural issue - or something else like "just complying with the CITA recommendations"?

There is a stigma here when it comes to water-sports related deaths. On average about once per month an elderly cruise ship passenger will have a heart attack and die while snorkeling somewhere on the island. Every time it happens, there is public outcry that "something must be done" to stop these deaths. Never mind the fact the person likely would have died if they were on the golf course instead of in the water - there is a genuine fear there. I'm sure it stems from this.

I was in Bonaire last year, and the culture to solo diving is shockingly different.

Also Kathy, you did quote me out of context earlier, and for the record, I never said there wasn't an insurance requirement to provide a topside watch. I said it wasn't a requirement to comply with CITA.

Both Port Authority and CITA require topside watch. My statement was Port Authority's rule may or may not be enforceable with criminal penalties, I wasn't sure.
 
Who knows. It's not an issue for us as we comply completely with CITA, occasionally to the chagrin of our customers, and sometimes we lose business as a result.

Is CITA a regulatory authority? Or simply an association of members? On their website, they state they are "a non-profit association which represents its membership of just over 250 tourism related private businesses in the Cayman Islands." Doesn't say anywhere they are there to govern, although it does say members must comply with their rules. But we don't have to be a member.... I suppose it would take a court to decide.

Last year we switched insurance providers, and in the meetings, I specifically asked, many times, what were the issues that could make us non-compliant. They were actually most concerned with our mooring inspection protocol than anything else...

...There is a stigma here when it comes to water-sports related deaths. On average about once per month an elderly cruise ship passenger will have a heart attack and die while snorkeling somewhere on the island. Every time it happens, there is public outcry that "something must be done" to stop these deaths. Never mind the fact the person likely would have died if they were on the golf course instead of in the water - there is a genuine fear there. I'm sure it stems from this.

I was in Bonaire last year, and the culture to solo diving is shockingly different.

Also Kathy, you did quote me out of context earlier, and for the record, I never said there wasn't an insurance requirement to provide a topside watch. I said it wasn't a requirement to comply with CITA.

Both Port Authority and CITA require topside watch. My statement was Port Authority's rule may or may not be enforceable with criminal penalties, I wasn't sure.

Thanks! There are a lot of cultural differences between Bonaire and Cayman - in my opinion anyway. For instance petty thievery is widely tolerated on Bonaire but not on Cayman. Topless sunbathing is accepted in Bonaire, and it's pretty easy to buy liquor on Sunday in Bonaire also - and not as easy on Cayman.

In general I prefer Cayman (especially in regards to theft!) but the living and diving freedom that is prevalent on Bonaire does have its' appeal, especially since the whole island seems to be all about diving - while Cayman has other attractions that I also enjoy!

BTW, I didn't mean to misquote you in regards to insurance. Only that I have heard that explanation about insurance speculated in the past, but apparently it may not always be correct - thanks for the clarification.
 

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