First cave dives

[beester]

If you look at the cave diving accidents that do occur, most if not all of them could have been avoided by following normal (non overhead obstruction) diving practice, such as watching air consumption, good navigation and not stirring up silt.

Hey 60 plus,

What is good air consumption and reserve planning in context of cave/overhead diving? What are the techniques you use to not stirr up silt in confined spaces? What are the navigational techniques you can use while diving overhead/confined spaces (wreck penetration, caves)? Can you please elaborate on this?

I've read some of your posts on this board. You seem to know a lot, for someone who claims to be just a vacation diver with less than 100 dives under his belt. You give your opinion on drysuit diving while never have dived a drysuit, you share your experience on decompression diving while never have done any real deco diving, you seem to know a lot about cave diving accidents, and how to mitigate the risks involved... and finally in a very funny twist you share your opinion on internet divers vs real divers... which is in this context very funny. So please share...

The reason I react so harsh is because I was you (well a much younger version of you)... about 12 years ago. I started diving in 1990 (when I was 14) but did less than 100 dives before I stopped. Then i started again in 2005, and realized, that I was a natural. I progressed from your equivalent of ocean diver to dive leader and advanced diver in 18 months, doing 150 dives in that time. I bought equipment, went on some holidays, and was taken under the arm of the most experienced diver (instructor) of my local CMAS club. I started wreck diving in the north sea and was very gun ho, doing progressively more and more penetration, taking portholes, catching lobsters... and all that. I experimented with solo diving, I bought a double set and used it without any training, I knew the risks (or thought I knew them) and I was becoming a rising star in my local club... the president of our club even asked if I didn't want to become an instructor after 2 years of restarting diving! I talked the talk... participated on a lot of forums, giving advice to new divers on a broad range of topics! ... yes I was something!

Then on a nasty summer day, I found myself inside a wreck, getting caught in monofilament (netting), at the worst time without any real gas reserve, and I realized at that time, that all that gun ho talking with a beer after a dive about "dying happy while doing the thing you love" is all ********! I didn't want to die! But I almost did. That put my feet firmly back on terra firma and I almost stopped diving because of it. (I even posted this on this board at the time trapped in net trying to ascend )

But it also slammed some modesty in me, and it started my still continuing voyage for more understanding. Slowly but steadily I gained more experience, changed equipment, changed some buddies, took more courses, realized some instructors were just big fish in little ponds and I needed experts to teach me, took more courses and dived dived dived. In the meanwhile I've met some world class divers, and I was lucky enough to have dived with some of them on projects.

Most of the time I encounter someone like you it's or a instructor from a small local dive club (big fish in a small pond) or a student (typically young and male,with a lot of confidence and in water skill), but it 's the first time I've encountered an older guy with, probably, a lot of life experience.

I realize that you probably feel a bit defensive, you just posted about a sea cavern dive, and we all let loose on you. Maybe you are right, and the cave/cavern isn't really that dangerous... but I'm quite sure looking at your posts, that you are overestimating your skill and ability to evaluate risk, and I just hope that the angry tiger that always lurks underwater will never bite you in the ass!

Cheers

PS: **** that's a long post... must be a slow day at work ;-)

 

[sea_ledford]

Although I am not cave trained I have watched many hours of cave dive training and cave diving videos and talk to cave divers (my OW instructor is also a cave instructor).

So you have access to caves and are actively diving them. You have access to a cave instructor. Sounds like a match made in heaven! Take the class.

I probably never will be cave trained because I do not like the increased risk of regular cave diving - if you do something often / frequently enough eventually something will go wrong.

That is exactly what everyone here is trying to say! Glad you agree, now go to your cave instructor friend and take the class. It'll be worth it! Even if you never decide to go in another cave again, cave is a great class.

 

[gbf]

"I am also aware that it usually takes more than a single failure, or even 2 or 3 failures to result in a disaster."

Uhhh, no, just no.

"In the Greek cave I was far more alert that I am on shallow open water dives,"

So? Alert to things that could happen to you that you don't even know about?

"had there been the slightest hint of anything starting to go wrong the dive would have been turned."

When you get the hint it could be too late - dead man swimming. And turned to go where? Into the line trap?

 

[Tribal]

Although I am not cave trained I have watched many hours of cave dive training and cave diving videos and talk to cave divers

I watch a lot of motoGP and i talked to people who have lots of experience in the Isle of Man.
I doubt it’s a good idea to get in to a race without the proper education.

 

[Neilwood]

I watch a lot of motoGP and i talked to people who have lots of experience in the Isle of Man.
I doubt it’s a good idea to get in to a race without the proper education.

But surely, if you have a basic bike license, then you are ok to do it? It is a good analogy because even the highly trained racers that take part die or suffer catastrophic injuries every year - link.

There is a good reason why diving in overheads is not part of the OW course - it has a lot of risks that are not apparent to basic OW divers.

 

[jlcnuke]

Stepfen post #31 pretty well sums up the type of thing that goes on at Southern European "holiday" dive outfits. This is done with a very large number of divers of varying ability yet the fatality rate is very low. Tursiops # 33. I am not reckless as you post seems to suggest, I weigh up the factors and decide if the risk is acceptable. Occasionally and for a brief period I am willing to accept a higher level of risk. Although I am not cave trained I have watched many hours of cave dive training and cave diving videos and talk to cave divers (my OW instructor is also a cave instructor). I probably never will be cave trained because I do not like the increased risk of regular cave diving - if you do something often / frequently enough eventually something will go wrong. As a previous poster has said, sea caves are different to freshwater caves. Several posters have used the phrase "you don't know, what you don't know" That is always true for all activities. What those posters don't know is the conditions in the caves (the videos do not give a good impression) I dived and the competence of the divers I was with. There was plenty of room in the cave, we were way above the bottom, I had not seen any of the other divers do anything wrong at all on the previous 3 dives and they all had excellent buoyancy and air consumption. If you look at the cave diving accidents that do occur, most if not all of them could have been avoided by following normal (non overhead obstruction) diving practice, such as watching air consumption, good navigation and not stirring up silt.

You're self-admittedly not trained in cave diving, and go cave diving. You self-admittedly accept that cave diving is dangerous and refuse to get trained because you're worried you might get in trouble cave diving..... and instead do cave diving without cave diving training?
I don't mean to sound insulting, but are you stupid??

What would you tell your wife/husband/children/parents if they decided to do exceptionally risky diving in caves, without training, and their justification for doing so without training was that they felt getting the proper training would be dangerous??? I'm pretty sure you'd not be pleased with them or their exceptionally poor decision. If you wish to proceed along this path I hope you get some common sense and get some training. If not, I pray that you don't learn the hard way how poor your decisions have been.

 

[Tassi Devil Diver]

I think many of you need to recognise that people who are not cave trained dive sea caves all around the world safely and without incident probably every day. Yes there are accidents and people die from time to time just as occours in all aspects of diving.

Sea caves can be dived safely by confident open water divers. As someone who has been diving sea caves in my area for 20 plus years who is not a trained cave diver, I suggest that peopel looking to do these dives do their resreach to determin likley conditions to be encountered. Speak with the dive operator about the level of experince and training THEY require, ask local divers who dive the area via local forums and Facebook groups how they dive these caves and the sort of training they have to do the dives, if they are saying cave cert it is probably because there is a reason such the cave is complex, silty, restricted etc and follow that advice. Take a redundant air source and second torch. If you have concerns or are not comfortable don't do the dive, not everyone is comfortable in a over head environment. If the option is available do an intial dive through some of the wider passages to get an overall feel for conditions. Be very aware of sea conditions on the day if the surge against the shore is rising and falling by more than 0.5m then take extreme caution, any more than that don't do the dive.

Here is a video (not mine) diving one of my local sea caves giving an good indication of likely conditions. This cave is the most complex sea cave in Australia and is dived nearly every weekend by open water divers, I have dived every part of this system, some of it is tight and not for everyone but the main chambers are suitable for most open water divers.


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[helodriver87]

I think many of you need to recognise that people who are not cave trained dive sea caves all around the world safely and without incident probably every day. Yes there are accidents and people die from time to time just as occours in all aspects of diving.

Sea caves can be dived safely by confident open water divers. As someone who has been diving sea caves in my area for 20 plus years who is not a trained cave diver, I suggest that peopel looking to do these dives do their resreach to determin likley conditions to be encountered. Speak with the dive operator about the level of experince and training THEY require, ask local divers who dive the area via local forums and Facebook groups how they dive these caves and the sort of training they have to do the dives, if they are saying cave cert it is probably because there is a reason such the cave is complex, silty, restricted etc. Take a redundant air source and second torch. If you have concerns or are not comfortable don't do the dive, not everyone is comfortable in a over head environment. If the option is available do an intial dive through some of the wider passages to get an overall feel for conditions. Be very aware of sea conditions on the day if the surge against the shore is rising and falling by more than 0.5m then take extreme caution, any more than that don't do the dive.

Here is a video (not mine) diving one of my local sea caves giving an good indication of likley conditions. This cave is the most complex sea cave in Australia and is dived neraly every weekend by openwater divers.

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Or here's a thought. If you're going into an overhead environment, especially if you're going beyond the daylight zone, get appropriately trained first. Then talk to local operations about conditions that might affect your dive. Anything less is extremely irresponsible. At best.

 

[helodriver87]

Also, the fact that you're suggesting bringing a second light and redundant air only if a cave cert is necessary speaks to some pretty serious ignorance on your part.

 

[Tassi Devil Diver]

^No ignorance here mate, I approach the diving of my local sea caves with eyes wide open fully aware of the risks and what is required to mitigate them.

I was not suggesting if a cave cert is recommended by locals then redundant air is ok, I was suggesting if locals require a cave cert then only dive if you have a cave cert (probably poor expression on my part).

A couple of my regular dive buddies are expedition grade cave divers, I have led then through these sea caves showing them the best bits (the low tight parts from a cave diving point of view) and they saw no need to lay line etc, and had no problem with the approach the local dive community takes to dive these sea caves.

Yeah, I could do a cave course, but there are no suitable caves for training locally and would require interstate flights, then regular trips interstate to get up dive time in caves to progress through the courses to dive my local freshwater caves. All my local freshwater cave diving is advanced cave level, cold and dark, mostly sump diving involving multiple 100m+ pitches using SRT to get to the water so pretty hardcore. So, doing a cave course for me is low priority when my primary interest in diving is exploring deep reef and wrecks and is overkill to dive my local sea caves.