First cave dives

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Okay, now I feel shame.

For my part, it's true that I'm making an assumption that the warnings against untrained divers entering caves have been communicated widely enough that anyone on Scubaboard at least must have heard it at some point. There's no way to know that, of course.

OP, no hate intended from me, my own post was meant in the spirit of friendly ridicule as I'd give any of my dearest buddies if I saw them doing something stupid. You may not be aware, but your experience reads effectively like a cliche. AOW has nothing to do with qualifying you for the cave environment. Get cave trained first. Then go see them. And don't patronize knuckleheads like the dive op that took you there.
 
This may fall under the category of "you don't know what you don't know" but your OW and AOW instructors should have covered the dangers of the overhead environment. If you want to continue this path, do yourself a favor and take a cavern course through one of the technical agencies. It will open your eyes and will provide some good training. If not, be sure to watch the video above and search the accident forum for cave accidents. There will be some involving non-overhead trained divers and instructors. Also, if you have a family, make sure your will is up to date.
 
Even if you dont intend to expand into full cave diving, a quality cavern class can make you a much better diver all around. Proper training for the situation you place yourself in is key to staying safe. Dive ops in Mexico offer cavern diving to OW divers, most of the time without issue. Personally I wouldnt go on those tours without being cavern certified previously or unless I was training during those dives. Overhead environments present added risks that must be safely planned for and trained to react to. I'm glad you are attracted to the amazing world down below the rocks, now go get yourself some cave training so that you can safely enjoy it.
 

Someone else's vacation video. I skipped around the timestamps and this doesn't look like a suitable dive site for people without cave training. Silty bottom, high line placement, and possibly subject to tides/currents.

Holy crap. Was that the divemaster/guide virtually standing vertically before waving the divers to follow into the cave?

Shame on that dive op..
 
OP you get no hate from me, just a basic observation and some advice.

Went to vortex for the first time Saturday and Sunday. I've been diving about a decade, have overhead training from my days with the fire department dragging bodies out of things, and am a confident if not the greatest skilled diver. I was in sidemount doubles as well.

I didnt even lose site of the cavern entrance. I wanted to, but the answer is quite simple...you do not go into a situation you do not know how to be in. What they took you into FAR exceded the equipment or training you had, and they talked you in to a situation that could have easily been quite deadly.

The cave guys, the tech guys, the PSD guys.... we( I can only claim the last one) don't warn you against doing things because we want the glory. I honestly want everyone to become everything in the dive world. We warn you about trust me dives and not exceeding limits because we want you to live to.do it again.


I understand the call of the cave. I'm going to.spend this summer getting my physical condition in a better place, learning to be 100%comfortable in doubles/sidemount, and my buoyancy and trim perfect.....because next year I want to find a cave instructor, and live up to the vow I made to be back, and do more than get a good look at the gold line.

I encourage you to take the criticism, even the rude ones, as well meaning, seek real cave training, and become a good diver. It sound like you're motivated, and motivation is what you MUST bring in to tech classes...the instructor can mold from there!

Good luck and safe diving
 
To the OP

Please don't take the criticism in this thread the wrong way, they are trying to look out for your well being.

No amount of openwater diving experience or training can properly prepare you for the hazards involved in cave diving. The majority of people that have died in water filled caves lacked any formal cavern or cave training. This death toll includes highly experienced divers and even several open water scuba instructors.

In 1979, Sheck Exley wrote the book "Basic Cavediving: A Blueprint for Survival" to help explain some of the hazards. Although the book is celebrating it's 40th year of existence, much of the content is still relevant. Last year, the NSS-CDS decided to give away the manual for free, please take the time to download and read a copy, it may save your life.

https://nsscds.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Blueprint-for-Survival.pdf

My best,

Ken
 
Ken, I will have a read of the download as soon as I have time. I would like to respond to a few of the points made in other posts. No one talked me into doing this dive, I did it after considerable thought over several months and after 4 previous dives with this outfit. I am well aware of the additional hazards of diving away from natural light and with no direct route to the surface. I am also aware that it usually takes more than a single failure, or even 2 or 3 failures to result in a disaster. I considered the risks and decided they were acceptable. Last Sunday my local club had an excellent dive at Wastwater, which they dive frequently and I suggest you do a google search for "wastwater divers deaths since 2000". The cave dive I did in Greece is less hazardous than my local lakes. I have an invite to dive the Farne Islands area which I will take up sometime (good for seals) but in the last 2 years at least 2 divers have died in that area. All diving carries risks. In the Greek cave I was far more alert that I am on shallow open water dives, had there been the slightest hint of anything starting to go wrong the dive would have been turned.
A few weeks ago the son of a friend (who I used to race motocross with) opened a practice track so I went to have a look. At the track I met up with a friend who I had not seen for over 25 years, he used to race mx also. I mentioned I still had my CR500 and was thinking of giving it a run round, he replied he could not ride a motorcycle now. I had heard he had been badly hurt in a car accident so I asked him what had happened. He had been returning home from holiday driving his car with his family in when he fell asleep, went up the motorway embankment and slid sideways into a concrete column supporting a bridge.
Madeira is my favorite diving destination (another 10 days there this autumn) but look at Live life on the edge with a trip to Madeira, Cristiano Ronaldo country. Also do a search for "tree fall kills 13 on madeira" or "madeira bus crass kills 29 germans" or look up plane landings at madeira on you tube. (at least we wont be flying on a Boeing max 8).
I would far rather live a life worth living and die doing it than never to have done anything interesting.
Cheers
 
Ken, I will have a read of the download as soon as I have time. I would like to respond to a few of the points made in other posts. No one talked me into doing this dive, I did it after considerable thought over several months and after 4 previous dives with this outfit. I am well aware of the additional hazards of diving away from natural light and with no direct route to the surface. I am also aware that it usually takes more than a single failure, or even 2 or 3 failures to result in a disaster. I considered the risks and decided they were acceptable. Last Sunday my local club had an excellent dive at Wastwater, which they dive frequently and I suggest you do a google search for "wastwater divers deaths since 2000". The cave dive I did in Greece is less hazardous than my local lakes. I have an invite to dive the Farne Islands area which I will take up sometime (good for seals) but in the last 2 years at least 2 divers have died in that area. All diving carries risks. In the Greek cave I was far more alert that I am on shallow open water dives, had there been the slightest hint of anything starting to go wrong the dive would have been turned.
A few weeks ago the son of a friend (who I used to race motocross with) opened a practice track so I went to have a look. At the track I met up with a friend who I had not seen for over 25 years, he used to race mx also. I mentioned I still had my CR500 and was thinking of giving it a run round, he replied he could not ride a motorcycle now. I had heard he had been badly hurt in a car accident so I asked him what had happened. He had been returning home from holiday driving his car with his family in when he fell asleep, went up the motorway embankment and slid sideways into a concrete column supporting a bridge.
Madeira is my favorite diving destination (another 10 days there this autumn) but look at Live life on the edge with a trip to Madeira, Cristiano Ronaldo country. Also do a search for "tree fall kills 13 on madeira" or "madeira bus crass kills 29 germans" or look up plane landings at madeira on you tube. (at least we wont be flying on a Boeing max 8).
I would far rather live a life worth living and die doing it than never to have done anything interesting.
Cheers

It has become clear that there is nothing we can say that will make a difference. Convincing yourself that all of life has risks so what difference does it make, you have rationalized and normalized a reckless behavior. You already said it.."On the second day we went into a much smaller cave.." Just like the light from the entrance you will gradually lose perception of the risks that you are taking. You should get the proper training and stop playing roulette with your life because one of these days the chamber with the live round will hit.
 
I'm all for people being allowed to do whatever they like as long as their actions don't impact others. But we have lost access to a number of dive sites because of the actions of a few who thought the rules didn't apply to them.
 
I'm all for people being allowed to do whatever they like as long as their actions don't impact others. But we have lost access to a number of dive sites because of the actions of a few who thought the rules didn't apply to them.

I would add that every time a cave diving “incident” hits the news, public opinion opinion towards this sport is impacted. This results In pressure from family, and can even effect things like insurance coverage.

The comments above are so typical of the “ego trap” that has resulted in far too many fatalities.
“I never left sight of the entrance”, “I won’t go that far”, “I know my limits”.

For the majority of incidents... you don’t know, what you don’t know.
 
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