8 changes...

[CT-Rich]

This was written by a guy who has spent a lot of time doing warm water diving. A long surface swim out is best done with a snorkel, I don’t where them 100% of the time, but there are dives I automatically use them.

His attitude on weights is pretty narrow. I have watched divers trying to stuff 24lbs of lead into a BCD. Not a pretty sight. Not everyone gets to dive in a 3mm shorty. What does he count in those seven steps? Grip end of belt, open buckle, extend belt in front, bombs away!

I am not an instructor, so I have limited knowledge about most of what he said, but it is always a danger to make global statements based on limited perspective.

 

[markmud]

This was written by a guy who has spent a lot of time doing warm water diving. A long surface swim out is best done with a snorkel, I don’t where them 100% of the time, but there are dives I automatically use them.

His attitude on weights is pretty narrow. I have watched divers trying to stuff 24lbs of lead into a BCD. Not a pretty sight. Not everyone gets to dive in a 3mm shorty. What does he count in those seven steps? Grip end of belt, open buckle, extend belt in front, bombs away!

I am not an instructor, so I have limited knowledge about most of what he said, but it is always a danger to make global statements based on limited perspective.

Hi CT Rich,

I went back to the article that this thread is based on and the title for the weight belt section is labeled:

"3 The End of Weight Belts in DIVER TRAINING" (emphasis added by markm)

I don't think his viewpoint is narrow (he definitely would not be caught wearing one, that seems true). I think it is logical. He doesn't seem to care if anyone likes or uses weight belts for specialized diving. During OW training I think it is best for newbs to use the easiest and most common system available. After OW, people do branch-out and specialize. I did.

Many lobster divers in SoCal use a BP&wing with a weight belt. Their octo is on a long, long, long hose. They occasionally doff their wing, switch to their long, long, long hosed octo and crawl under ledges or into holes. The weight belt is perfect for this system. A beautiful purpose-built system that only an Angelino could devise.

I don't think the author is advocating for the abolition of the SoCal lobster set-up. I hope not.

Dive and Let Dive!

markm

 

[TMHeimer]

No difference.

The anomalies only begins when it's 1/4 turn open (mistake been made) and you're at depth. The tank supplies enough air to pressurize the HP hoses, it just gets progressively slower at filling up your LP system after every breath.

Thanks. That's about what I figured.

Bob DBF, I see you agree with me that two newly certified divers shouldn't buddy up. I thought I was the only one thinking that.

 

[Bob DBF]

Bob DBF, I see you agree with me that two newly certified divers shouldn't buddy up. I thought I was the only one thinking that.

Not quite. The WRSTC standard is that two certified OW divers be able to plan and execute dives without supervision. I believe that was the point of having dive training since it's inception.

That being said, the new diver should have gained the knowledge and judgment from that training to understand when not to make a dive or have a more knowledgeable and experienced diver mentor him when dealing with new conditions.

From my point of view, good judgement is the hallmark of a good diver.


Bob
------------
"A man's got to know his limitations". Harry Callahan

 

[The Chairman]

A long surface swim out is best done with a snorkel

Or on your back. I have swum over a half mile doing this, both going out and coming in. There are simply too many entanglement hazards here in Florida to use one, and especially so on wrecks.

 

[TMHeimer]

Not quite. The WRSTC standard is that two certified OW divers be able to plan and execute dives without supervision. I believe that was the point of having dive training since it's inception.

That being said, the new diver should have gained the knowledge and judgment from that training to understand when not to make a dive or have a more knowledgeable and experienced diver mentor him when dealing with new conditions.

From my point of view, good judgement is the hallmark of a good diver.


Bob
------------
"A man's got to know his limitations". Harry Callahan

Point taken. I felt I was able to prepare and execute easy benign dives right out of OW course. For quite a while my buddy was also brand new. We were conservative in our shore diving.
It was after taking Rescue about a year later that I began to feel that what we did wasn't the best of ideas, even though we were trained well enough to do it. Gets back to what you would do in a panic/emergency situation when neither of you has the standard rescue skills. But that's been discussed enough.
Some instructors and very experienced divers have said that if you truly have mastered all the skills taught in (your STANDARD agency, not the exceptions) OW course, you should be fine if you are a newbie buddied with another newbie. You correctly do everything you've been taught, and you know enough to stay alive. It's just my feeling that this view doesn't take into account surprise situations/panics/emergencies. I have no basis for feeling that way, since I have yet to truly encounter anything close to that personally.

 

[The Chairman]

but it is always a danger to make global statements based on limited perspective.

Danger? Possibly. Unfair? Most definitely. Dive and let Dive!

 

[Bob DBF]

It's just my feeling that this view doesn't take into account surprise situations/panics/emergencies

The problem is the training does not prepare the diver for situations/panics/emergencies he may encounter because scuba is being sold as safe. Mainly because of the BC and SPG, and with the dive OP's making divers feel they are safe with a DM leading them, they are diving well beyond the limits of their ability, and they don't even know it.

I agree with your assessment, but I don't have to like the situation.


Cheers

Bob

 

[3arl J0n35]

I stopped using a dorkel when I started spearfishing. Too many times I'd shoot a large fish and he'd dart off with my bolt in him, tangling the line around that obnoxious thing and nearly snatching my mask off when the line got taught. I decided there was more risk in being at 70 feet without a mask than there was the need for a snorkel. I've been certified for 18 years and have never "needed" a snorkel.
Sure I've had some surface swims where it was nice to have, but "nice to have" doesn't equal "needed" IMO.

And I like my weight belt. I carry half on my weight belt and half in my BC. If I had to carry 22lbs in just a BC that's too awkward and hard to handle. If for some reason I need to jettison weight, I don't want to shoot up like a ICBM being launched from a nuclear sub. Dropping half my weight is buoyant enough. Another reason I like my belt is that it's easier to adjust for a 3 mil VS 5 mil and steel VS aluminum and farmer john VS full suit, or any of those combinations, if I can just add or take away a pre-determined amount of weight from the pouches in my belt without having to remove weight pouches from a BC and change the weight in them. With my belt, if the first dive is with steel then I just drop two 3 lbs shot bags in my belt and I'm ready for the aluminum tank for the second dive. I don't have to fool with the BC weight pouches. Takes me about 45 seconds to swap from aluminum to steel and vice versa.

And like some others have said, Don't touch my tank. I don't play the obsolete 1/4 turn back BS and a boat monkey better not touch my gear. 1/4 back was alright back in the days of steam locomotives when hot steam would swell a valve and jam it open if it didn't have room for internal expansion. That's the way we did it at the power plant for just that reason. If a valve "stuck open" from expansion, we'd have to put a 4 foot long wrench on it to try to close it, and usually that would break off the stem rather than turn it, so we used the "1/4 turn back" method to prevent expansion lock-up. A scuba valve isn't experiencing a 80* to 600* Fahrenheit temp range variance, so it isn't going to "jam open" like some people think if it's fully open. Opening a valve then closing it 1/4 turn makes about as much sense as closing a valve then opening it 1/4 turn.

I do have a snorkel and have it on the boat. I had to swim out about 50 yards and bring in a tired diver one time. I had already geared down except for wetsuit and boots, so I just grabbed my fins and mask and snorkel and that made the swim out and back less exhausting because I didn't have to bother with keeping my head out of the water.

But all that is just my preference. Some people want their valve turned back 1/4 and want a snorkel and don't want or want a weight belt. If they are competent with their preference I don't see that it makes much difference at the end of the day. Sounds a lot like the .45 is better than/worse than the 9mm argument.

 

[CT-Rich]

The problem is the training does not prepare the diver for situations/panics/emergencies he may encounter because scuba is being sold as safe. Mainly because of the BC and SPG, and with the dive OP's making divers feel they are safe with a DM leading them, they are diving well beyond the limits of their ability, and they don't even know it.

I agree with your assessment, but I don't have to like the situation.


Cheers

Bob

The only thing that gets a diver truly ready for a f-up is rime in the water. The little problems teach you to handle the bigger problems. A mentor is probably more valuable than pool and classroom time. More experience keeps small problems from escalating into bigger one. Someone showing you the ropes will improve the learning curve