Looking For Advice on First BC Purchase

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Firstly ditchable weight isn't silly.

Adding ballast you don't need for the single purpose of having "ditchable weight" is at best silly, one could use many other adjectives too......

In cold water a drysuit should be the answer.

A dry suit is *one* answer, and I would argue the appropriate answer for tech diving, but the poster I was responding to is seeking info regarding the purchase of their First BC. Of course they may be planning on mounting an expedition to the Doria with this First BC, but I kinda doubt it. :) Are you suggesting that the scuba police should bar all those with drysuits from single tank recreational cold water diving? Please do be specific.

The fact remains that with thin to no exposure suit a properly weighted diver will:

1) Never be massively negative
&
2) Will have to ditch their rig in the event of buoyancy failure and long wait at the surface.

Let me know if you need examples....

Tobin
 
Adding ballast you don't need for the single purpose of having "ditchable weight" is at best silly, one could use many other adjectives too......

He is asking about how to set up a new system. An ali backplate, a small wing and a one piece harness. Then we will have able to add some weight that he will need to be ditchable. Easy.


A dry suit is *one* answer, and I would argue the appropriate answer for tech diving, but the poster I was responding to is seeking info regarding the purchase of their First BC. Of course they may be planning on mounting an expedition to the Doria with this First BC, but I kinda doubt it. :) Are you suggesting that the scuba police should bar all those with drysuits from single tank recreational cold water diving? Please do be specific.

The fact remains that with thin to no exposure suit a properly weighted diver will:

1) Never be massively negative
&
2) Will have to ditch their rig in the event of buoyancy failure and long wait at the surface.

Let me know if you need examples....

Tobin

What benefit does a very thick wetsuit have other a drysuit? Why are drysuits only acceptable for tech diving? I'm not suggesting anyone should ban anything. I'm suggesting if someone comes on here and asks for the best advice we give that rather than offering inferior alternatives. A second hand drysuit it not even expensive.

You do not need to be massively negative to drown. So I don't get your point.

The bit in purple is actually wrong in some cases. I know many bcd's which are quite positively buoyant.
 
Adding ballast you don't need for the single purpose of having "ditchable weight" is at best silly, one could use many other adjectives too......



A dry suit is *one* answer, and I would argue the appropriate answer for tech diving, but the poster I was responding to is seeking info regarding the purchase of their First BC. Of course they may be planning on mounting an expedition to the Doria with this First BC, but I kinda doubt it. :) Are you suggesting that the scuba police should bar all those with drysuits from single tank recreational cold water diving? Please do be specific.

The fact remains that with thin to no exposure suit a properly weighted diver will:

1) Never be massively negative
&
2) Will have to ditch their rig in the event of buoyancy failure and long wait at the surface.

Let me know if you need examples....

Tobin

So to follow up on this (And admittedly, i'm trying to learn as I go on this, so forgive the occasional dumb question), if i'm looking at these two options:

Option 1: 6 lb Steel plate, no ditchable weight

Option 2: 3 lb aluminum plate, 3 lbs ditchable weight

Wouldn't option 2 be preferable, as you could go at least 3 lbs LESS negative in the event of a buoyancy failure? (And a tad lighter to fly with, given that i'll always be flying)
 
So to follow up on this (And admittedly, i'm trying to learn as I go on this, so forgive the occasional dumb question), if i'm looking at these two options:

Option 1: 6 lb Steel plate, no ditchable weight

Option 2: 3 lb aluminum plate, 3 lbs ditchable weight

Wouldn't option 2 be preferable, as you could go at least 3 lbs LESS negative in the event of a buoyancy failure? (And a tad lighter to fly with, given that i'll always be flying)

I've a feeling that if I vented an Al80 completely -- not that I suggest anyone ever do that -- my kit would be pretty much neutral. Probably wouldn't even sink if I ditched it: tank at +2, Al plate at -2, and there's got to be enough air trapped in the wing to offset al those d-rings and other steel bits.
 
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So to follow up on this (And admittedly, i'm trying to learn as I go on this, so forgive the occasional dumb question), if i'm looking at these two options:

Option 1: 6 lb Steel plate, no ditchable weight

Option 2: 3 lb aluminum plate, 3 lbs ditchable weight

Wouldn't option 2 be preferable, as you could go at least 3 lbs LESS negative in the event of a buoyancy failure? (And a tad lighter to fly with, given that i'll always be flying)

One of key benefits of a using a Stainless plate with thin suits and buoyant tanks is the ballast is over your buoyant lungs and alongside the buoyant cylinder vs on you waist as is typical with other BC's and or a lightweight plate.

While I'm not dismissing the concerns about baggage fees, it's always seemed odd to me that folks would spend thousands of dollars in a diving vacation and then make less than optimal gear selections in order to save ~3 lbs.

DSS sells light weight, less negative plates for those applications where a SS plate will over weight the diver *in the water* The classic example would be a diver using thin suits and negative steel tanks.

Having said that lets get back to beating the dead horse of ditchable weight.

Again lets start with a neutral diver using a 3 mm suit and buoyant al 80. The suit is 3-4 lbs positive and the cylinder is +4 empty. This diver will need ~ 6-7 lbs of total ballast in order to hold a shallow safety stop with a (near) empty tank. (Actual empty tank generally signal end of the safety stop :) )

A SS plate, harness, reg and full al 80 will be -9 ~10 with a full cylinder and ~-4 with an empty tank. A diver using this rig will be right about 5-6 lbs negative at the start of the dive when their cylinder is full.

If they start -5 and manage to fully compress their wetsuit *without* using *any* gas from their tank, i.e. a hot drop to ~180+ FSW. then they may find themselves -9 lbs.

Now lets look at reality. Single tank rec dives aren't hot dropping to 180 ft. So our diver *might* be at most 6-7 lbs negative *at depth* of course if they had to swim this massive 6-7 lbs load up their wetsuit will of course be rebounding as they ascend reducing their negative buoyancy back to the 5 lbs they started with.

Now they reach the surface and discover no boat in sight! and they are -5 lbs with a non functioning wing. If this is really the case their options are to inflate an alternative float, like an smb, or ditch their rig.

Now switch in a light weight plate and add 3 lbs of weight belt. Now our diver only needs to swim up 3-4 lbs (hardly a major difference) and when they arrive at the surface they are still negative, with pretty much the same options as above. Sure may they can tread water longer when they are 2-3 lbs negative vs 5 but negative is negative, after a while you need to kiss the gear good by.

Of course one could add a foam pad infested inherently buoyant BC. Which of course only adds to amount of ballast needed and adds to amount of ballast a panicked diver would need to swim up....... This is IMO as silly as adding ballast so you have something to ditch.

Tobin
 
Not all warm water destinations use aluminum tanks. Steel tanks are common in the Mediterranean. Mind you, these are not the dive destinations that tropical destinations are, but...
 
Not all warm water destinations use aluminum tanks. Steel tanks are common in the Mediterranean. Mind you, these are not the dive destinations that tropical destinations are, but...

Quite true. Ill advised, but quite true. One of my standard comments to divers seeking advise on selecting a BP&W is "The solution to being over weighted is never a bigger wing"

What is the solution? If the ballast represented by the basic rig exceeds the buoyancy of the divers exposure suit something needs to change. Might be the exposure suit, might be the cylinders, might be both, might be staying out of the water.

Tobin
 
So to follow up on this (And admittedly, i'm trying to learn as I go on this, so forgive the occasional dumb question), if i'm looking at these two options:

Option 1: 6 lb Steel plate, no ditchable weight

Option 2: 3 lb aluminum plate, 3 lbs ditchable weight

Wouldn't option 2 be preferable, as you could go at least 3 lbs LESS negative in the event of a buoyancy failure? (And a tad lighter to fly with, given that i'll always be flying)

Your options are valid - except that I think AL plates are typically 2# or less. Which one is preferable is just that - a preference.

I don't mind at all carrying my SS plate when I fly. I have a Kydex plate that I could take if I wanted to. But, I'd rather dive with no weight belt and no weights added to my rig. Others prefer to have a lighter suitcase or carry-on bag and don't mind putting 4# (or an extra 4#) on their belt or in some trim weight pockets.

If you want an AL plate because of the lighter weight, then you might have a serious look at your ultralight soft plate options. Like this Mares XR for $53:

Mares XR Soft Back-Plate

Get a steel plate later, if you start doing cold water diving or diving with doubles.
 
Have you thought about the XDeep Ghost? http://www.xdeep.eu/lightweight-traveler-scuba-bcd-ghost-bc-system-pr-51.html

I have one that I'm meaning to sell as I've switched to SM for travel. I loved the thing as I was stable in whatever position I put myself. If you want new, that's fine, but you may want to consider that option as well. I have found in a couple trips to the tropics that it travels well.
I am gonna be a Plus 1 with Kosta on the XDeep Ghost. Wish I knew you were selling yours, I might have bought it. I just bought a new one. They come in a standard and a deluxe version. The deluxe might fit the bill for your girlfriend and you, as they do have comfortable neutrally buoyant padding in the straps and have quick release buckles (like a normal BC) for ease of getting into and out of.
 
I finally swapped to backplate a couple weeks back, I should have done it previously I doubt I will ever go back to a BC.
With a crushed out 3MM and an old Black Diamond BC I carried 9lbs. With a DGX wing and SS backplate I trim out nutral with an empty AL 80 (≤ 100PSI).
This works great for me but I am short and fat, for others a SS plate may be to heavy. I would suggest for warm water diving most will find a lighter backplate with a simple trim pouch on the harness, centered, with the buckel offset
 

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