"Correct Weighting" Identified as #1 Needed Improvement in SCUBA Diving

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I have read a few of your articles and have to point out that you use a lot of big words out of context. I believe this is a tactic to try to hide the fact that you are ignorante.
@soggybadger : Via PM, I've tried multiple times to get clarification on where I have used a lot of big words out of context.
You wrote " I have read a few of your articles and have to point out that you use a lot of big words out of context. "

Although I know that I have a tendency to get too technical for many people's level of attention, I try hard to communicate effectively regardless of the level of detail. Please let me know where I have made these mistakes so that I can correct that mistake in the future, and in past writings if it is possible to make corrections.
Hi soggybadger,

I'm still looking for some clarity for where I went wrong with words and context. Any assistance is appreciated.

Thanks,
REVAN
It's been a week now with no response. Does this lack of response simply mean that your comment was a diversion to justify your publicly labeling me as "ignorante" [SIC]? If so, I don't appreciate it. Others may find it offensive as well.

If I have, in fact, made errors using words out of context, and especially in any articles I have written, I'd like to have the opportunity to correct the mistake. We can never avoid all mistakes, be we can always strive to do better. For example, you should spell ignorant without the extra 'e' unless you are writing in the spanish language.
 
It's been a week now with no response.
Perhaps, and this is pure conjecture, that @soggybadger is done trying to reason with an unreasonable person?!? I pointed out 8 days ago that you completely mischaracterized what I posted, and you have yet to respond. I expected an apology, but got squat. Don't be a hypocrite and decry someone for doing what you do. It's a forum, people are free to respond or not respond as they see fit. Trying to badger them into replying is simply bad form and it's definitely not a sign that you're right... only ignored.
 
@soggybadger
It's been a week now with no response. Does this lack of response simply mean that your comment was a diversion to justify your publicly labeling me as "ignorante" [SIC]? If so, I don't appreciate it. Others may find it offensive as well.

Oh, come on now. I've asked you repeatedly how one is supposed to address one's buoyancy at deeper dives (say 30 meters or so). Have I received one response? It is a question that others have asked, but you've avoided it.

If you demand that people answer your questions, shouldn't you demand of yourself to answer questions asked of you?
 
It is readily apparent that @REVAN has an ulterior motive to his horrible dislike of a BC and some lead. Maybe it has something to do with the awesome monofin. I am shocked and amazed that we have yet to see a plug for it in this thread. But if ALL agencies would adopt his training ideas it would probably open the door to everyone wearing a "Revan Monofin"
 
It is readily apparent that @REVAN has an ulterior motive
Here, I merely thought it was just some FIGJAM-itis.

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Oh, come on now. I've asked you repeatedly how one is supposed to address one's buoyancy at deeper dives (say 30 meters or so). Have I received one response? It is a question that others have asked, but you've avoided it.

If you demand that people answer your questions, shouldn't you demand of yourself to answer questions asked of you?
This has been covered already (at least in piecemeal), but here it is again (in summary form):

If the dive is in warm water with no wetsuit, the depth is basically irrelevant to buoyancy. When the diver adds a wetsuit and as the wetsuit gets thicker, depth starts to become an increasing issue. A 3 mm shorty should not cause anyone an unmanageable problem on a 40m dive, and I regularly dive a full 3mm farmer-john. Keep in mind that I've got a lot of practice, low body fat and big lungs. An obese person would have a different limitation. A 3mm jumpsuit is easier than a 3mm farmer-john, and a 2/3mm even easier, etc.... These scenarios encompass a large fraction of recreational diving. So there are , I think, real and significant benefits to divers having these skills.

With wetsuits thicker than 3mm, I would think that most all divers would want to, and should, use a BCD unless the dive is going to be restricted to only very shallow depths where the buoyancy shift is reduced. For any normal human, a dive to 40m in a 7mm wetsuit will need the specialty equipment of a BCD to be done with buoyancy control throughout the dive profile.

I have never said that no one should use a BC for scuba diving. Only that divers should have the knowledge and ability to conduct an appropriately structured dive (planning for suit thickness, tank size and depth profile) without relying on a BC for buoyancy control. Have the skills and know your limits/abilities. I think that if this was a baseline for diver training, there would be some long term benefits that would result in better weight management skills among the diving populations. Others disagree with this premise.

With the core skills of weight management mastered, by all means get the BC specialty, the drysuit specialty, etc.... In cold climates the BC specialty may need to be bundled with the basic certification. Maybe the no BC diving would be restricted to some subset of the pool sessions only. Maybe one OW dive that is depth restricted could be included in a thicker wetsuit just to show that they can plan and execute the dive. That's probably not as robust a situation as someone getting trained in tropical waters, but it could still have some long term benefits to weighting skills.

Anyway, the bulk of diving instructors do not appear to be onboard with this idea. It would require new training for most instructors before it could be taught, so their resistance is understandable. Bottom line, it's not going to be pushed up to the agencies from the bottom. The other alternative is to do it top down and start a new training organization to do it. That seems extremely unlikely as well. So at this point, all this discussion is nothing more than a gedanken experiment, but maybe it will motivate someone out there to think more about improving their weight management skills. If so, this will have been a useful discussion.

I hope this answers your question. I'd still appreciate an answer to my question. In a PM would be prefered, as it is not relevant to the thread topic.
 
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With wetsuits thicker than 3mm, I would think that most all divers would want to, and should, use a BCD unless the dive is going to be restricted to only very shallow depths where the buoyancy shift is reduced.

Many people dive in wetsuits thicker than 5 mm. I dive a 5 mil in 80 degree water. I know I don't have the greatest tolerance to cold. I do get cold in a 5 mil in 75 degree water after a couple dives. After 4 dives in 80 degree water I get cold.

Training agencies have a program that is fairly consistent from 85 degree water where people where no wet suit to 45 degree water where people where dry suits. This is one way your idea falls completely flat. There needs to be standardization.

I don't know whether you want to take non divers and try to teach them your techniques. I'd advise against it, because I believe that you would be taking a bit risk with students eventually drowning. I think you'll kill someone fairly quickly. So don't.

I have never said that no one should use a BC for scuba diving. Only that divers should have the knowledge and ability to conduct an appropriately structured dive (planning for suit thickness, tank size and depth profile) without relying on a BC for buoyancy control.

Have the skills and know your limits/abilities. I think that if this was a baseline for diver training, there would be some long term benefits that would result in better weight management skills among the diving populations. Others disagree with this premise.

Teaching students proper weight/trim/buoyancy/finning is what creates divers with solid skills out of open water. You have no evidence that your way is better. I don't see why anyone would sign up for your course.


by all means get the BC specialty

You do know that PADI gets ripped on for all their specialty courses right? I'm actually laughing from the idea that boat captains will check for BC specialty cards before allowing their customers in the water with BCD's.

Anyway, the all diving instructors do not appear to be onboard with this idea.

Fixed it for you.


I'd still appreciate an answer to my question.

Your question wasn't directed at me. I personally do not care whether you use words appropriately or not. I do care whether you will put an uninformed person at risk with your ideas.
 
With the core skills of weight management mastered, by all means get the BC specialty, the drysuit specialty, etc.... In cold climates the BC specialty may need to be bundled with the basic certification. Maybe the no BC diving would be restricted to some subset of the pool sessions only. Maybe one OW dive that is depth restricted could be included in a thicker wetsuit just to show that they can plan and execute the dive. That's probably not as robust a situation as someone getting trained in tropical waters, but it could still have some long term benefits to weighting skills.
Why do you seem to think that weight management cannot be mastered along with use of a BC? They are not mutually exclusive concepts - all it takes is divers who care to improve their technique. Unfortunately, many don't care or don't dive often enough to even want to bother. I went from OW right into PPB and it was a great course that built upon the concepts touched on in OW, but really gave you more practical focus and practice on the concepts and inter-relationships of breath control/ weighting/buoyancy. In fact, I think PPB should be part of OW cert.
 
I have never said that no one should use a BC for scuba diving.
I believe the most effective solution would be to return to old way where divers first learn to dive with a tank on a simple backplate (no BCD).
You've been beating this drum like you were on a war path. Now you're flip flopping faster than a DC Politician. Are you doing this for the attention you're getting?
 
I don't know whether you want to take non divers and try to teach them your techniques. I'd advise against it, because I believe that you would be taking a bit risk with students eventually drowning. I think you'll kill someone fairly quickly. So don't.

Before you get too carried away, training OW divers without a BC was done for years before the BC was invented, and by some, even after. Training was also done prior to widespread use of the SPG or j-valve, as well, without constant training casualties.

I don't believe it would be a good idea now because aspiring divers, for the most part, have poor water skills which are not addressed prior to, or during, SCUBA training, or probably ever.
Granted the technology improvements make diving easier for everyone, but here we are discussing the #1 problem of overweighting, which is allowed by the improper use of the BC making up for the lack of understanding about proper weighting.



Bob
 

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