The depth shall be 60, 60 shall the depth be, 61 is right out unless your AOW certified????

[packrat12]

...You keep referring to the era when instruction was delivered through lecture, the very worst method of information transfer, as the golden age of scuba instruction. Using better instructional methodologies that take less time is not dumbing things down...

I also keep forgetting to mention it, since my training most definitely would be called a blended training even today, the only real difference is many but not all instructors allow online training. Otherwise, my much later AOW teaching methods were very similar to my OW. I would not say more 'modern methods'. This also applies to my daughter's training, her boyfriends training, her boyfriends family's training in the last 2 years or so with a number of different instructors and shops! And for online training, I watched by daughter's boyfriend do his Nitrox. He really did not study or even comprehend the data. He skimmed the material, used the search functions for the questions and did the test. I would not call that learning. I made him go over it more in depth after he passed the written test! If that is current 'better teaching methods' I would really question the quality of the students coming out of OW.

..That is simply not true. Under the standards, your performance of a skill can only be passed if you can demonstrate to the satisfaction of the instructor that you have mastered it to the point that you can do it successfully from that point on. One successful attempt after many failures does not meet that definition. But, then, you knew that, didn't you?...

Actually it is quite common and I personally have seen it often enough. It might not meet your satisfaction but for a significant number of instructors it does meet theirs. For many, it is better to get them out then work on them further. Not enough time to practice skill is a big issue. Again, I see it regularly with a number of new divers I dive with. But then again, I have no vested interest in defending current teaching methods. <insert your report to standards statement here rather then fixing the fundamental flaw>

As for the AOW portion, where the problem comes in is that the basic skills were better rooted when the training was more thorough and comprehensive (read more time). I see numerous instances of very 'weak' divers today. They very much need the hand holding that AOW training provides. Even after AOW, I still see a lot of 'weak' divers. Unfortunately the agencies have become little more than a student mill. AOW existed (although it was not even mentioned in my course) when I learned to dive. It was not being used at that time as a mechanism to provide additional supervision as it is today. It was not until the 1990's that I had met a known AOW diver that was not a DM or instructor in my circles! It was bluntly never even talked about in the '80's on a boat. Skills were the key to the type of diving being done, not a piece of plastic.

 

[Gareth J]

When I originally trained, buddy breathing was in the syllabus (PADI).
When I later became an instructor with BSAC, we where teaching both. I have done an awful lot of buddy breathing ascents from 20m (66ft). How well theses went was definitely not a consistent and heavily reliant on the skill of both divers, and this done under optimum conditions, I.e. not in an emergency.

The BSAC dropped buddy breathing from the syllabus some years ago. The driver was that in analysis of incident's in an emergency, divers where resorting to buddy breathing, when they had a perfectly functional AS (octopus). The reason, muscle memory, so much time and effort had been used learning the technique, that in an emergency divers reverted to the more practice skill rather than using the safer functioning AS. The result was more fatalities, where, if the easier technique of using an AS had been adopted, the likelyhood would have been a successful ascent and no fatality!

Gareth

 

[AfterDark]

Newbie question from an old timer. I was certified in 1973 and I guess either I missed the line about not exceeding 60 ft or I forgot it. Has this limitation always been in place? I am AOW certified but my wife isn't. She has over 400+ dives and we often (usually exceed 60 ft) max depth. We dive the Carribean if that matters. It has never stopped us from a dive, never stopped us from diving deeper within our comfort level and never been questioned about our depth upon returning from a dive. Has this limitation always been around? I would hate for the SCUBA police to come haul her off. Thanks Bill and DeeDee ( old timers who are just curious )

You didn't miss it, it wasn't a "rule" back then. I never dive deeper than the bottom. I had over 1500 dives and 40 years of diving many dives deeper than 130FSW before I got AOW. AOW was a waste.

 

[packrat12]

You didn't miss it, it wasn't a "rule" back then. I never dive deeper than the bottom. I had over 1500 dives and 40 years of diving many dives deeper than 130FSW before I got AOW. AOW was a waste.

My first dive after OW cert was in Blue Springs Orange Park FL to 125' in the cave, my second dive was in De Leon Springs FL to the grate in the back of the cave. I was quite comfortable on both dives and went often to Blue Springs during the 80's and early 90's.

The only reason I got my AOW cert was because my daughter started diving and I took the course with her!

The days before liabilities ruled and self responsibility was king.

 

[TMHeimer]

I only learned to buddy breathe in the DM course--which I think is the norm today. I can see that it could cause real problems if both buddies are not solid with it or are unfamiliar with each other. The % of that happening perhaps is why it has been dropped by many agencies.

 

[tursiops]

My first training in buddy breathing was with a double-hose regulator; now THAT's fun!
Then I learned on a single-hose regulator. MUCH better.
Then I learned on an alternate regulator. It starting feeling like it might actually help.
Then I went back to buddy breathing for DM.
Then I learned about long hoses and taking the reg from someone's mouth
Now, over the years, I've seen or been involved in some real OOG events, at both recreational and technical levels.
Nasty at best (hearts are pumping, SAC is way up, anxiety is way up), and I can see why the agencies have dropped buddy breathing in favor of an alternate second stage....it actually gives you a decent chance to live...both of you.

 

[NAM001]

Oh, I think you need to be able to swim to be a scuba diver, but the requirements need not be as severe as those were.

But back to my question. You attacked modern scuba instruction, saying, "The diving industry is now selling courses that were in the past included in the basic scuba course...." I asked you for specific examples of this. Do you have any?

OW. AOW. RESCUE. DEEP. NAV, FIRST AID, CPR to begin with was all in one course decades ago. My YMCA training in the late 60's was equal to all required for todays master card. I don't know any one that had to do recessa anne to pass the current OW courses.

 

[John C. Ratliff]

Oh, I think you need to be able to swim to be a scuba diver, but the requirements need not be as severe as those were.

But back to my question. You attacked modern scuba instruction, saying, "The diving industry is now selling courses that were in the past included in the basic scuba course...." I asked you for specific examples of this. Do you have any?

Just so you'll know, this discussion is not an "attack on modern scuba instruction." It is a set of observations from an ex-NAUI instructor (#2710) from the 1970s to the early 1980s, who has been diving since 1959.

I am still researching the differences in course outlines, as I haven't taught in a long while.

But, hear are some observations from my own LA County course in 1963. I had been SCUBA diving since 1959, when I bought my first 38 cubic foot tank and Healthways SCUBA double hose regulator with money I earned from strawberry and bean picking that summer. I was a 13 year old kid enthralled by diving. I was also on the YMCA swim team, had finished a Lifesaving course, and was in the process of becoming a Red Cross Water Safety Instructor. So let me tell people about my LA County Sucba Course. We, the Salem Junior Aqua Club, had to import an instructor from California as there were no local instructors in Salem, Oregon a Tank the time. Just before this course, I procured a Healthways Scuba Star single hose regulator and a steel 72 tank with a K-valve (the regulator had a restrictor orifice in it for the reserve). Here are a few things our instructor, Roy French did during that course.

--doff and don exercises (multiple) in the pool.
--buddy breathing exercises (again, multiple).
--classroom work using "The New Science of Skin and SCUBA Diving," including multiple decompression problems.
--pool harassment, with Roy in the water, sometimes turning off our air, pulling off our masks, etc. As a final pool test, he had us pair up, get on the bottom, looking down, and he pulled a gill net over us as a buddy team while the rest watched. We had to monitor our buddy's tank, try to untangle it while our buddy (Elaine McGinnis, in my case) attempted to untangle my tank from the net. We had to work our way out from under the gill net without assistance from the instructor (Roy French) or anyone else in the class.
--Open Water Checkout Dives. We did multiple checkout dives, but I don't remember how many. We did do mask clearing, buddy breathing, and a CESA from about thirty-five feet depth in Yaquina Bay.

So my question is whether pool harassment is still being conducted, and whether you have seen the equivalent of a buddy team having to work their way out from under a gill net in your experience as an instructor?

SeaRat

 

[Killerflyingbugs]

We did pool harassment that turned into a underwater fight, it was fun

 

[AfterDark]

I only learned to buddy breathe in the DM course--which I think is the norm today. I can see that it could cause real problems if both buddies are not solid with it or are unfamiliar with each other. The % of that happening perhaps is why it has been dropped by many agencies.

Just what is the reason that DM's learn to buddy breathe if only DM's know how? Not that it is a hard drill to learn or do but your post would seem to indicate the it is. So what is the purpose of A DM learning the drill? When would it be used and with whom another DM?