Are some signals just plain stupid?

[TMHeimer]

I too keep my mask on and reg in when boat diving or in water too deep to retrieve the mask should it get knocked off. Interesting that it seems most or all of the replies (from mostly more experienced divers than me) seem to agree that most of the time it by itself is not indicative of panic (especially if on land!). So how come all of the 12 instructors I have DMd for still admonish it to students?

 

[Akimbo]

Actually, it may well be…

Interesting, thanks. How well do you think this applies to a diver wearing fins, a buoyant suit, and a BC?

The recreational events I have witnessed were panic-induced hysteria and there was a lot of yelling and thrashing going on... and not much risk of drowning. The big, yet subtle, indicator of a diver in serious trouble on the surface is the classic deadman float with asymmetric extended arms and no regulator bubbles or snorkel.

 

[Storker]

Interesting, thanks. How well do you think this applies to a diver wearing fins, a buoyant suit, and a BC?

The recreational events I have witnessed were panic-induced hysteria and there was a lot of yelling and thrashing going on... and not much risk of drowning. The big, yet subtle, indicator of a diver in serious trouble on the surface is the classic deadman float with asymmetric extended arms and no regulator bubbles or snorkel.

You're kind of answering your own question there, aren't you?

Let me put it this way: I won't assume that a person who isn't thrashing is OK...

EDIT, let me clarify that slightly: I won't automatically assume that a person is OK just because they aren't thrashing.

 

[ReefGuy]

What distresses me is how much people stress over this non-issue.

 

[boulderjohn]

I believe that the silly mask on the forehead confusion is a combination of what I have in the past called "the reduction funnel" in teaching concepts and an unfortunately worded question on an OW exam.

The "reduction funnel" is a concept I made up and explained back when I was teaching educational concepts. It is something I saw many times. You start with a big idea that needs to be communicated, and that big idea is well thought out in detail. You teach it to someone who teaches it to someone who teaches it to someone.... Before too long, the big idea is reduced to a couple bullet points, and sometimes it is reduced to only one or two points in a way that may totally contradict the original more complex concept. In this case, the big idea is that a panicked diver can be recognized by putting together a set of clues that include among other things, equipment rejection. We note that equipment rejection is often discarding a regulator. It can also be rejecting a mask. the mask might be pulled down. It might be shoved off the head in an upward direction. If it is pushed upward, it might come off, or it might stay on top of the forehead. Once the big idea has gone through the reduction funnel, we are left with the simple statement that having the mask on the forehead is all by itself a sign of panic, a statement that is actually contradictory to the original big idea.

The old PADI OW course did teach the big idea, and it had a question on the final exam that talked about signs (plural) of panic. Unfortunately, the wording was such that, although technically correct, it made it very tempting for instructors reviewing course material prior to the exam to "remind" students that a mask on the forehead was a sign of panic. I imagine several million students took that exam over the years.

 

[uncfnp]

I believe that the silly mask on the forehead confusion is a combination of what I have in the past called "the reduction funnel" in teaching concepts and an unfortunately worded question on an OW exam.

The "reduction funnel" is a concept I made up and explained back when I was teaching educational concepts. It is something I saw many times. You start with a big idea that needs to be communicated, and that big idea is well thought out in detail. You teach it to someone who teaches it to someone who teaches it to someone.... Before too long, the big idea is reduced to a couple bullet points, and sometimes it is reduced to only one or two points in a way that may totally contradict the original more complex concept. In this case, the big idea is that a panicked diver can be recognized by putting together a set of clues that include among other things, equipment rejection. We note that equipment rejection is often discarding a regulator. It can also be rejecting a mask. the mask might be pulled down. It might be shoved off the head in an upward direction. If it is pushed upward, it might come off, or it might stay on top of the forehead. Once the big idea has gone through the reduction funnel, we are left with the simple statement that having the mask on the forehead is all by itself a sign of panic, a statement that is actually contradictory to the original big idea.

The old PADI OW course did teach the big idea, and it had a question on the final exam that talked about signs (plural) of panic. Unfortunately, the wording was such that, although technically correct, it made it very tempting for instructors reviewing course material prior to the exam to "remind" students that a mask on the forehead was a sign of panic. I imagine several million students took that exam over the years.

^^^^ Can we make this a sticky?

 

[dumpsterDiver]

The value of teaching no mask on forehead is that it can be indicative of impending panic.

It is often unwise to remove the mask on the surface because you can get a snout full of water and then this simple little thing CAN induce full blown panic.

So it is important that a student learn that when they reach the surface and they feel scared and close to panic and claustrophobic and unable to get enough air... that they do NOT revert to their NATURAL instinct - which is obviously to get the crap off your face. They need to remain calm and keep the mask on - even when it feels unnatural and bad. The feeling of ditching the mask is an EXCELLENT tool for the diver to help judge their own degree of control. Self recognition that I am about to panic is very valuable.

So,,, if you are teaching good divers, they understand all this and when they see someone remove their mask on the surface - in a hurry... it is a very good warning sign.

A few weeks ago, I dove with a women who was uncomfortable and aborted a dive. She accelerated the final portion of her ascent to an unsafe degree and when she reached the surface.... she spit the reg AND removed the mask completely and held it in her hand. She was not in panic, but she was very uncomfortable and reverted to her natural instincts and in doing so, actually reduced her safety - to some small degree (because it was calm). It was very clear evidence to me that she was not in full control of the situation, so I swam to her and physically grabbed her BC.

If she had kept her mask on and her regulator in her mouth, I would not have touched her.

So mask removal on the surface is an IMPORTANT clue and a natural instinct.. just like holding your breath and bolting for the surface.

The whole idea of making a big deal about someone on the boat with their mask on the forehead is ridiculous.

 

[Akimbo]

You're kind of answering your own question there, aren't you?...

Not necessarily. I have heard lots of stories from dive boat captains where divers didn't inflate their BC or drop weight. Those divers might have been at risk of drowning.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

While Google results are no guarantee, they can be useful. Simple search found this. My conclusion is that panicked divers are highly unpredictable. However, given that I just became a DM, have 220 dives over a little over 2 years, I don't have the experience as many of those on this thread.

Aged 29, volunteer diver, one of a six man team from Karst Underwater Research (A not-for-profit organisation that maps and measures flow and water quality of underwater springs for state agencies and water management districts in Florida), diving with three others at the Weeki Wachee Springs State Park. The group had descended to about 180' and as they ascended he took a different route and became wedged, possibly trapped by water flow (at about 100' depth), the team members tried but failed to release him. Rescue divers got to him in under three minutes from leaving the surface when the first group surfaced and raised the alarm, but found him dead with his regulator out and mask pushed onto his forehead. Body brought to the surface an hour later. The Ledger.com. The autopsy concluded death was caused by an air embolism (specifically, that an air bubble had lodged in his heart and blocked the blood supply to the lungs) and the medical examiner ruled it as an accidental death. Karst U/W research quoted as saying "Instead of following the ropes as he had done multiple times in the past, Marson rapidly moved into a restrictive area of the crevasse. It is believed that this behaviour was not calculated but a reaction caused by the affect of an air embolism he incurred while rapidly ascending from depth. Typically, this condition causes profound changes in mental functioning, including disoriientation, blindness, paralysis, seizures and loss of consciousness within minutes or even seconds of onset. If it occurs after surfacing, it is often fatal or profoundly disabling even with prompt recompression therapy. When it occurs underwater, the incapacity or unconsciousness it causes almost always results in drowning". Hernando Today. This fatality has not been included as a commercial diving fatality as this seems to be a weekend cave diving group using 'research' as a means of gaining access to cave systems that might otherwise be off-limits (TC).

 

[gcarter]

mask on top of head, that is not taught to put it there as a sign of distress, it should be taught NOT to put it on the top of your forehead because it is often a sign of a distressed diver. They'll get to the surface and slide the mask up on their forehead to breathe. If you calmly come to the surface there is no reason not to put it on the back of your head. The double advantage here is it is much less likely to be swept off of your head by a wave

fist on top of head is a signal back to surface support that you're OK. From a boat deck or dock if the glare is bad you can't see hand signals so you want to make a big OK sign to the mates to indicate that you're OK. The other reason for this is in cold water with gloves on the black neoprene makes it all but impossible to distinguish hand signals especially against a black exposure suit. Lobster claw gloves and mittens make it that much harder.

What should be taught is that it is not anything except a mask on the forehead UNLESS OTHER distress signs are present.