Fins and manoeuvrability

[danvolker]

Are the Force fins longer than the F1? What are the "whiskers" for? Do you use them?

I let one of the other Scubaboard regulars..Guy Harrison, try my Excellerating Force fins last week...I need to get them back this weekend
They are about the same length as the Extra Force fins I have next to me, and them compared to the F1's, the Extra Force fins are slightly shorter.

The whiskers may look silly...like a gimmick, but they actually serve to funnel vastly more water over the part of the blade that gives you the push....more funneling the harder you are kicking..the faster you want to go...it is almost like they get the extra length of a huge freedive fin, when you really need the leverage for more power and speed....but...when you are not kicking hard, the whiskers don't funnel much, so the fin feels like a much shorter fin---which it is...and is easy to kick slow..and feels efficient to kick hard....
In comparison....take a pair of Scubapro Jet fins, and try to swim at scooter speeds for a minute or so..simulate getting back to an anchor or similar actual need. The Jets are very inefficient, they load lactic acid into your quadriceps--even if you are a competitive cyclist. The jets are fine for a 10 second sprint, but that is almost as ridiculous as expecting a tiny "Spare Air" to work as emergency backup on 130 foot dives.....when you need it...you need "more"

 

[tbone1004]

for maneuverability you need stiffness and surface area. Hollis F1's are better than OMS slipstreams, which are better than Jet Fins. The Hog Tech 2 fins work well too, but don't have enough area to move thru the water. If your legs are strong enough, you can flutter kick faster in these types of fins than just about anything which is why the rescue swimmers use OMS Slipstreams. Stiffer and lighter than jet fins, that were the predecessor. They shaved a significant amount of time off of their swims using the OMS, but you need some serious leg power to get them up to speed, then again, you shouldn't be flutter kicking unless you have to get somewhere and you have to decide what is more important, maneuverability, which is frog kick, or efficiency at kicking, which is flutter. You can't hover flat while flutter kicking, it doesn't work, moment arm is far too big, you have to return to the "Resting" position for a frog kick.

Are the force fins worth $400, hell no, don't care who you are, you will never be able to justify paying 3x the price of any other high end fin on the market, you're at law of diminishing returns there. Are they better for what dan said, probably, are they 3x better to warrant the price? hell no.

Fin order of operations
Sidemount/CCR-Dive Rite XT then OMS Slipstream
Backmount-Hollis F1-Scubapro Jet Fins

really no other fins worth looking at because if you have the leg power, the ones above can go damn fast if you need them to.

 

[decompression]

Tell me what you would like me to cover....or are you ribbing me for a long post ?

Tongue firmly planted in cheek![emoji2]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[danvolker]

Are the force fins worth $400, hell no, don't care who you are, you will never be able to justify paying 3x the price of any other high end fin on the market, you're at law of diminishing returns there. Are they better for what dan said, probably, are they 3x better to warrant the price? hell no.

Tbone "IS" right for most people.
And then there is the relatively small percentage of divers that enjoy diving with a scooter.

A Gavin scooter would run around $3500 , a Suex closer to $6k because they weigh half as much as a Gavin..speed and duration are similar.

So as to what I call "high end/high tech fins...and what they cost--what they can do...with my DiveR's, I can do an hour long dive off Boynton beginning on the fingers at around 90 feet, for about 25 minutes, and the rest mostly around 55 feet deep....and my two buddies are on a Gavin scooter, and a Suex Scooter....and I am faster than them...and at dive end, I will be down to 850 psi, and they will be down to 1200 psi.
Cruising for lobster....doing cruises all the way around a big shipwreck....this is what scooters are great at....even getting you from a shore entry to a dive site many hundreds of yards from shore...You could pay $3500 to $6000 for the scooter solution....and also have that as your solution for emergency upcurrent runs etc...OR...a pair of DiveR Freedive fins...or, a pair of Excellerating Force fins, which are just a tiny bit slower than the DiveR's. Suddenly the near $400 price tag, is not so alarming
My dive buddies you could ask about this are Matt Cain ( a GUE diver from Boca), and Bill Mee....WKPP diver living in Boynton. Both visit SB from time to time, but don't normally post.

In fairness...to leverage the DiveR's or the Excellerating Force Fins to the point you can outswim a scooter, you need to be a cyclist. The muscles used are about the same...the aerobic base you get from cycling, let's you do a cruise pace with low heart rate and low breathing rate that a non-cyclist is unlikely to get anywhere near....sort of the same way, you can put a non-cyclist on a fast racing bicycle, and they will be unlikely to be able to hold much over 18 mph for more than 5 minutes--and they will breathe like a freight train........Whereas a cyclist that can ride at a Cat3 or even Cat 4 level, can do 21mph with a HR that will be low enough to keep breathing rate close to normal. It all depends on what you like to do....If you like cycling, and diving, then for dives under 110 feet, you don't need a scooter to do what they do.
If you are going to 130 to 290, yeah, you need a scooter to cover distance--you dont try to leverage aerobic power at depth....you cant get rid of CO2 as well when you get to deeper depths....and you run the risk of getting a muscle constricted from the exertion, and negatively affecting bloodflow on your ascent...a decompression issue you dont want....But..this is "Advanced Scuba", not tech, so swimming with scootering buddies is still in the cards and maybe for some divers, $300 or $400 for ultra high tech fins, might be better than many thousands for a scooter

 

[Johanan]

Fin order of operationsSidemount/CCR-Dive Rite XT then OMS SlipstreamBackmount-Hollis F1-Scubapro Jet Fins

tbone1004, that's interesting. I normally dive in sidemount and Hollis F1. Why do you think they are more suitable for backmount than for sidemount?

danvolker, do I understand correctly that the advantage of the Force fins, especially the whiskers, over other fins manifests mainly when I'm using the flutter kick and when I have to develop speed or cover long distances, but not so much when frog kicking?

 

[danvolker]

tbone1004, that's interesting. I normally dive in sidemount and Hollis F1. Why do you think they are more suitable for backmount than for sidemount?

danvolker, do I understand correctly that the advantage of the Force fins, especially the whiskers, over other fins manifests mainly when I'm using the flutter kick and when I have to develop speed or cover long distances, but not so much when frog kicking?

Yes...for flutter or dolphin kick.

 

[tbone1004]

tbone1004, that's interesting. I normally dive in sidemount and Hollis F1. Why do you think they are more suitable for backmount than for sidemount?

buoyancy in water. If you dive F1's with a wetsuit, especially with steel tanks, you are forced to put trim weights on the shoulder straps to be able to hover. F1's and Jet Fins are negative in the water, Dive Rite XT's/Slipstreams are neutral in fresh, slightly positive in salt, so it helps tremendously with trim.

 

[Rusty Roo]

buoyancy in water. If you dive F1's with a wetsuit, especially with steel tanks, you are forced to put trim weights on the shoulder straps to be able to hover. F1's and Jet Fins are negative in the water, Dive Rite XT's/Slipstreams are neutral in fresh, slightly positive in salt, so it helps tremendously with trim.

going to agree with you completely here. f1s are heavy fins, i use them for drysuit diving, wetsuit diving i use the tried and tested mares avantti quattros.

 

[gkrane]

Regardless of what they can do, a $400 price tag for a pair of fins is very alarming. I have never tried them so I can't comment on their effectiveness but 400 bucks...Really? Seems almost criminal.

 

[george_austin]

I have Jet Fins - worthless. The best all around fin I've ever used is (and they are my daily /all purpose fins) the UDT Model from a knock off Voit mfg in Malaysia. So that should tell you that fin equipment is all about personal preference. I do hear the Force Fins are the best though and I have been able to do incredible sprints underwater with Atomic splits but I ain't going there.

---------- Post added September 24th, 2015 at 11:19 AM ----------

Regardless of what they can do, a $400 price tag for a pair of fins is very alarming. I have never tried them so I can't comment on their effectiveness but 400 bucks...Really? Seems almost criminal.

Not almost criminal, full criminal -