Why the dislike of air integrated computers?

[The Chairman]

I put a lot of dives on my Oceanic VT3 and am doing the same with their VTX. They are very robust, although the latter uses a lot more batteries. FWIW, I prefer the former for OW and the latter for caves. I switch between transponders all the time during the dive with absolutely no problems. It's like three clicks and I'm reading the other transponder.

 

[dmoore19]

As a console, maybe you are beating it up somehow? IDK. If you want to have an SPG, then maybe you should consider a backup wrist computer? Have you had problems with the wrist computer? Maybe an AI hoseless, you could still have the SPG if you wanted.

Yesterday I crashed my third Sherwood Wisdom 2 AI. I really like AI computers, but thru the years my wife and I have had our share of durability problems with these roughly $700/800 computers. Have had 2 go out on plus 100 ft dives, that will spook you. I now always carry an SPG and wrist computer so as to not ruin my dive day. Last time I sent the Wisdom 2 back, was told none were left for replacement, so don’t know what I’ll hear this time. If there is one out there that has the rugged durability for a + 300 dives a year diver let me know.

 

[boulderjohn]

They want to know why boats in the Keys are a bit aggressive when it comes to safety. Lots of deaths is why. No, they really aren't diving induced deaths, but it keeps them on their toes. No one wants to needlessly add to the numbers. I can't blame them.

Let's say that I am diving in the Keys and in the dive briefing I am told to be back on the boat by 50 minutes. I dutifully return to the boat in plenty of time, happy as a clam after a nice dive. While I am taking care of my gear, the crew is going to look at my computer to make sure I didn't do something they think is dangerous during that dive. If so, they will cancel my diving privileges for the next dive. Is that what you are saying?

Nothing will be said or done.
...
I live here in the Keys, and I've never had any dive op check my PDC. Not even on the Spree. If they're checking your PDC, you've given them some cause to do so. In that regard, you probably would be checked by any boat, any where.

I am thorougly lost now. It seemed to me you were using the high fatality numbers to justify the "aggressive" measures taken in the Keys to ensure diver safety. When asked about it, you seemed to reply that absolutely no "aggressive" measure are ever taken by anyone. They only get interested if you seriously violate dive times.

 

[Nemrod]

It's not just 'me', I'm talking about. I'm a local here as well as enjoy a bit of notoriety so I'm often get treated a bit differently. But, I've got eyes and ears and engage divers from around the world here in my backyard. I haven't heard or seen a single op doing what you're suggesting, unless of course, there were mitigating circumstances. Rather than 'dive, dive, dive' it's more like 'pool's open!" I also get around the state of Florida and every time someone asks to see someone's PDC, there has been a mitigating circumstance. In fact, this happened to me in Boyton when I had a twenty five minute safety stop. No deco was involved, just the ballet of three sailfish feeding. The captain, a friend of mine, still couldn't believe that and insisted on seeing my PDC. Not a problem here as I was clean on that count.

Yeah, I think it's just the opposite and so I call shenanigans. I've never heard such an opinion before this thread, so it's anything but 'widely known'. 99.9% of the divers don't share your opinion and show their love for the Keys by showing up and diving. It's more that the Keys are 'widely known' for their awesome and varied diving. The Keys are also 'known' for being crowded on holidays and for not having much of a surface interval if the second dive is shallow. We've got some of the easiest diving in the world as well as fairly challenging ones not that much further out. It's why I live here.

My experiences were and have been over the years what they are. That is not to say that I have not had any good dives and experiences, quite the opposite including my most recent trip down, both extremes. People who have dived with me know I am a competent and careful diver (despite my colorful stories), that you suggest otherwise is on you to prove. I have been visiting the Keys regularly since circa 1972, often spending as long as a month at a time down and even including hauling my boat, more than once. I did mention to you that if you had a specific interest in order to avoid a potentially bad dive, you could PM me, otherwise I would ask you to stop suggesting or inferring that I am not truthful. I am not going to engage you or anyone else in those shenanigans. I am not going to give you a list of everybody who has done me bad over the last 40 years but I will tell you the one most recent. Especially since it is beyond the scope of the original ops question. I stand by what I said, the Keys have some excellent advanced diving and it is awfully hard to get to it. And, I tire of the Duane and Spiegal, just saying, I miss the trips back in the 70s out to deeper natural bottom and the drifts. The excessive nannying, justifications for it or otherwise, is over the top, though I would say it has gotten generally better over the last few years overall. The 99.9% figure, that would be just those who have not stopped coming to the Keys. The problem is that there is better diving for less money and less frustrations available, many simply do not go there anymore so I am not sure what the 99.9% means, where does that come from?

Okay, you have my interest, I believe what you are saying, which Keys operation sticks to their published schedule (when there is no reason not to), is not lazy forcing double dips on Mo Shallow or the Duane and does not mix snorkel divers with experienced scuba divers nor check air and depth? As an amateur photographer, I probably am a demanding and particular customer, I do not want double dips on Mo Shallow with the background of all my photos full of obese snorkelers in swim dresses. You ask me to tell you, can I have you tell me, putting the shoe on the other foot so to say. I may get back down this year (if not I may be down a month or more next summer) so it could be useful to me your recommendations, though I have some other places on my list of things to do, not all diving related! Thanks in advance if you can please.

I am particularly interested in deeper locations with frequent close encounters, preferably natural, with turtles, sharks, rays and other pelagics.

Or this.

And lots of empty space is my style.

But the Keys do have the best sunsets, worth the trip alone.

Back on the AI, my primary need with a computer is the ability to adjust or choose different algorithms and I like and really need a large bar graph or graphic display that I can see clearly. Large numbers and a large display and a large graphic display. If it comes with an AI transducer I may use it or may not, I can see it's use in some of my dives so having that option is not going to cause me heartburn. I do not have to use it or even bring the transducer, as long as the computer does it's primary functions without, I would not care. I am also into low profile, low weight and would like to be able to plug it into my Mac not only to download my dives but to adjust settings or make custom settings. If I used the AI for recreational dives, say something like nearly three hours at the BHB, I would remove my spg. It could be useful to see my psi on my wrist whilst holding my camera. I wear my computer actually up on my forearm, low profile is important. The only thing on my wrist is my watch and my Benedictine bracelet, tucked under my rashguard, I need my hands and wrist uncluttered to work my camera and such as that. The Petrel, the AI issue, meh, it is huge.

N

 

[The Chairman]

John,

Don't be confused. It's not a nanny system by any stretch, no matter what others may say. Nothing is done unless you give the crew probable cause to look further. If you want to do a tech dive, simply go on a boat accommodating that. It might be the very same crew, but they are now expecting your dives to be longer than the average NDL on that trip. If you aren't sure, simply ask the captain or crew before you leave the dock.

Most of us realize that our safety is the crew's responsibility while we are on the boat. However, a great crew will spot and intervene if they see an accident that is merely waiting for water to happen. Seeing recreational divers bending or breaking the rules is a good indication of that. Either they don't know or they don't care enough to follow those rules and they see that as a problem... wouldn't you? Diving safety is no accident. If you don't want to obey the rules of the boat, go on your own. You obviously don't need them if you're only going to break their rules.

 

[The Chairman]

otherwise I would ask you to stop suggesting or inferring that I am not truthful.

Oh please... stop with the needless and emotional drama fest! I never intimated, suggested or inferred that you weren't being truthful. However, I do believe that you are wrong. You're the only one calling them nannies so it's obvious that it's not that 'widely accepted'. Not even close. That's why I'm calling 'Shenanigans'. If you want to drop the discussion, then stop trying to get the last word. We disagree. I live down here and have dove with most of the dive ops down here and have never seen what you describe. Ever. I have seen people get bent out of shape when a dive op calls them out for breaking the rules. They usually start out by calling the dive ops various names or disparaging their family origins. That's OK. The best dive accident is the one that's been prevented by whatever means. If you get hurt on a boat you ruin everyone's trip. If you get butt hurt because the crew calls you on breaking their rules, it's no worry to me. More power to them for doing what they can to keep the trip fun for everyone and I'm sure your butt will be fine after a bit.

 

[Nemrod]

Oh please... stop with the needless and emotional drama fest! I never intimated, suggested or inferred that you weren't being truthful. However, I do believe that you are wrong. You're the only one calling them nannies so it's obvious that it's not that 'widely accepted'. Not even close. That's why I'm calling 'Shenanigans'. If you want to drop the discussion, then stop trying to get the last word. We disagree. I live down here and have dove with most of the dive ops down here and have never seen what you describe. Ever. I have seen people get bent out of shape when a dive op calls them out for breaking the rules. They usually start out by calling the dive ops various names or disparaging their family origins. That's OK. The best dive accident is the one that's been prevented by whatever means. If you get hurt on a boat you ruin everyone's trip. If you get butt hurt because the crew calls you on breaking their rules, it's no worry to me. More power to them for doing what they can to keep the trip fun for everyone and I'm sure your butt will be fine after a bit.

I have not disparaged any family origins nor ever cursed at anyone, again you lump me in with activities and behaviors I am definitely not known to engage in, in order to be dismissive of my opinion. I accept yours and believe you and therefore, if you have some good recommendations for specific operators then I would appreciate you providing them, please feel free to PM, if that would be better for you. I have now several times invited you to PM me rather than discussing in the open forum. Rather than generalities, just give me a good recommendation. And I will be glad to be specific with you as well, if you wish, at least with my most recent, not going to recount decades of evil doers. Thank you in advance.

Let me add this, I think one of the things that causes me problem in the Keys is that I travel alone often or just with my wife which makes it challenging, especially when alone to get good service as the ops will dump me quite often for a larger group, usually at 7PM the night before making it impossible to find other accommodations. That usually set me off to a bad start with an operator for sure, especially when I booked specific scheduled dives weeks and in some cases month in advance and even offer sometimes to charter the entire boat in desperation. I have found this behavior common, especially in the Key Largo area.

But if you do not wish to talk in PM, that is fine, I understand. My last post in this thread regarding generalities about Keys diving.

Back on the AI, which unit is known to have the smallest sender/transducer?

N

 

[The Chairman]

I have not disparaged any family origins nor ever cursed at anyone, again you lump me in with activities and behaviors I am definitely not known to engage in, in order to be dismissive of my opinion.

Except for calling them nannies??? Oh the irony! I mean really, please give the personal drama a rest!!! I haven't impugned your honor: you have. If you want to not be accused of calling people names, then simply stop stop doing that. Using an overly broad brush by calling responsible dive ops 'nannies' means that you are actively engaged in those activities and behaviors whether you deny them or not. I'm simply calling a spade an FN shovel!

I accept yours and believe you and therefore, if you have some good recommendations for specific operators then I would appreciate you providing them, please feel free to PM, if that would be better for you.

As for dive ops that support tech diving, here's my personal favs: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/florida-diving/510310-tech-friendly-keys-dive-ops.html#post7451629

Feel free to add or comment on them as you see fit.

I have now several times invited you to PM me rather than discussing in the open forum.

Please don't blame me for continuing this mess. Stop trying to defend yourself and stop calling all dive ops in the Keys 'Nanny ops'. It's simply horrible to slime all of the dive ops when you only mean a few... or possibly only one. You already have one person saying they don't want to dive 'Floriduh' because of your comments and who knows how many others take your summary judgment as being the truth. The Keys are a great place to dive... and live.

Back on the AI, which unit is known to have the smallest sender/transducer?

I don't believe size is as important as reliability. Until just recently, I believe that only Pelagic (Oceanic, Hollis, Aeris) PDCs allowed you to specify the individual unit by serial number. This makes syncing Pelagics quite easy and less problematic. I think I can ID at least four and possibly up to six transducers. As for size, they all look about the same to me.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

You already have one person saying they don't want to dive 'Floriduh' because of your comments

Please don't take my comments personally, I meant no disrespect toward Floridians or their state.
I call a lot of places a lot of things. San Francisco is either San Franfreako or San Franpsycho,
Pismo beach where I used to live is Sleazmo Beach, Morro Bay is Moron Bay, Atascadero is Atrashcadero, Bodega Bay is Blowdega Bay because the wind never stops, Point Arena is Pointless Arena because nobody can figure out why there is a town there....and so forth. I make fun of things but it's just humor.

So back to Florida.
One of these days I would like to go dive water warmer than 59-64 degrees, which is what I consider warmish now (when I go to Socal). Not that I don't like cold water, but my fantasy is to be able to dive in a 3 mil shorty or just board shorts with nothing but a 72 or AL 80 and a back pack and have virtually unlimited range for recreational depths. In California they let me do this (except I have to use a thick wetsuit), which blows me away since the conditions here are a lot different than Florida. It should be the other way around... Is there any place in FL that will let me dive old school with just a back pack and no BC short of befriending one of the locals and paying them $50-$100 for gas and having them take me out somewhere so I can see what it would be like to dive minimalist in water around 80 degrees.
If the right operator knew that I wasn't born last week and got my certification yesterday and saw by my gear and by having a conversation with me they could make an exception in my case, would that fly? There was a time that dive operators took people out that were configured like me because that's all there was.
I know nothing about shore diving there, which from all my reading there really isn't any, so that would mean the only option is a charter or private boat but I don't know anyone.
So I could always go to Hawaii because I know there is shore diving there but the water isn't 80 degrees and it's an expensive flight.
For my own reasons, I don't necessarily want to fly out of the country to go to Bonaire or a similar place quite yet.

 

[The Chairman]

Please don't take my comments personally,

It's peculiar that people usually say this when their boorish behavior is quite personal. Since I am directing this to you, you should take it rather personally.

If the right operator knew that I wasn't born last week and got my certification yesterday and saw by my gear and by having a conversation with me they could make an exception in my case, would that fly?

We have a vintage forum where Floridians can answer this very question.

I know nothing about shore diving there, which from all my reading there really isn't any,

You need to read more. While there might not be much shore diving in the Keys (Canon Beach, anyone?) there's lots of shore diving in Florida. Blue Heron Bridge, Lauderdale by the Sea, Venice Beach, springs, lakes, rivers and many more spots I didn't mention. Check out the Florida section for even more suggestions. I'm not sure what this has to do with AI or even hoseless AI, but I hope I personally answered some of your concerns.