Non professional divers taking very young children diving (even in a pool)

[Wookie]

Sorry if I missed this in the 185+ replies to the OP, but (in all seriousness) what is the inherent risk of having a child (not a 5 yr old, but let's say a mildly semi-mature 12 yr old) breath off scuba gear with a certified parent at a depth of 8 ft? Is the issue that if the child released him/her self from the reg and "bolted" the 7-8 ft to the surface while holding their breath that they would get an embolism or lung overexpansion injury?

Yes, and the link to the incident report for "just that case" is in the middle somewhere. All PADI instructors must watch that video during their training. I'm being only a little facetious, I don't think it's a standard, but I don't know many who didn't.

 

[boulderjohn]

A lot of people seem to be assuming they know exactly what gramps was going to do in the pool. Was he only going to have the child breathe off of the regulator while sitting in the 3-foot deep part? Was he going to do more complicated exercises in the deep end? Was he going to do the doff and don exercise that killed the student at the University of Alabama? Was he going to do a CESA without going through the procedures required by pretty much all the agencies after a study showed teach the CESA was the primary cause of dive fatalities during training? How is a dive shop to know what that untrained "instructor" is going to do, and how safe it will be?

As for the rapid ascent leading to an embolism, that is indeed the primary danger, and it is what we instructors are so vigilant to prevent. Adult students may do it for a number of reasons, one of the most common being simply getting water in the mask. I imagine a 5-year old might be a bit more prone to that.

 

[redacted]

A lot of people seem to be assuming they know exactly what gramps was going to do in the pool. Was he only going to have the child breathe off of the regulator while sitting in the 3-foot deep part? Was he going to do more complicated exercises in the deep end? Was he going to do the doff and don exercise that killed the student at the University of Alabama? Was he going to do a CESA without going through the procedures required by pretty much all the agencies after a study showed teach the CESA was the primary cause of dive fatalities during training? How is a dive shop to know what that untrained "instructor" is going to do, and how safe it will be?

As for the rapid ascent leading to an embolism, that is indeed the primary danger, and it is what we instructors are so vigilant to prevent. Adult students may do it for a number of reasons, one of the most common being simply getting water in the mask. I imagine a 5-year old might be a bit more prone to that.

I'm not sure I understand how you could be a scuba instructor if you tend to assume the worst.

The grandfather is a certified diver so he was trained on the dangers of lung over-expansion injuries. The shop took the time to reinforce that training. While there is always some risk, why pick this situation to limit individual freedoms?

Our public education systems recognize the right to conduct home schooling. You don't even need to be a certified "instructor" to educate your children. Why should this be so different? Because of a very slight risk factor??

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Yes, that is the primary risk and it is probably little different for a 12 Y/O than a 5 Y/O. There are a number of options to control that risk either through close supervision or by controlling depth (like 2 ft or less).

Yes exactly. I started my son out in the deep end when he was 6 or so. He could snorkel well, but the scuba made him nervous and for whatever reason (maybe he got water up his nose) he spit the reg, released no bubbles and tried to bolt for the surface..

Luckily, I was right there and grabbed him before he could do anything, but then we had a problem. He was struggling and fighting to reach the surface in a total panic and as much as I wanted to stop the torture, there was no way I could release him.. until he released bubbles and/or passed out.

After what seemed like a long time, he finally lost it completely and started bawling... Once I saw the huge release of air, I gently took him to the surface and he was crying uncontrollably. I felt really terrible and it was another year before we tried scuba again.

Taking little kids in the pool with compressed air is not trivial. He seemed so comfortable snorkeling, but was just not ready for scuba. You could kill a kid in 2 seconds.

 

[redacted]

Yes exactly. I started my son out in the deep end when he was 6 or so. He could snorkel well, but the scuba made him nervous and for whatever reason (maybe he got water up his nose) he spit the reg, released no bubbles and tried to bolt for the surface..

Luckily, I was right there and grabbed him before he could do anything, but then we had a problem. He was struggling and fighting to reach the surface in a total panic and as much as I wanted to stop the torture, there was no way I could release him.. until he released bubbles and/or passed out.

After what seemed like a long time, he finally lost it completely and started bawling... Once I saw the huge release of air, I gently took him to the surface and he was crying uncontrollably. I felt really terrible and it was another year before we tried scuba again.

Taking little kids in the pool with compressed air is not trivial. He seemed so comfortable snorkeling, but was just not ready for scuba. You could kill a kid in 2 seconds.

I understand. I like the idea of a tank floating in an inflated BCD, a child in a life preserver, and a 2nd stage on no more than a 36 inch hose. When all looks good, lose the life preserver. Then, you might consider a longer hose; but why?

 

[DaleC]

Interesting discussion.

Informal education of new drivers is allowed.
Informal hazardous workplace education is allowed.
Informal firearm education is allowed.
Informal swimming lessons are allowed.
Informal bicycle, horse and dirt bike/atv education is allowed.

So why not informal dive education with a test required for certification. In almost all other respects it doesn't matter how you learned as much as it does what you learned.

 

[Seya]

Interesting discussion.

Informal education of new drivers is allowed.
Informal hazardous workplace education is allowed.
Informal firearm education is allowed.
Informal swimming lessons are allowed.
Informal bicycle, horse and dirt bike/atv education is allowed.

So why not informal dive education with a test required for certification. In almost all other respects it doesn't matter how you learned as much as it does what you learned.

That's easy to answer. Because most people that post here have an economical incentives to force you to get trained and buy gear before you every try the sport

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

 

[boulderjohn]

Our public education systems recognize the right to conduct home schooling. You don't even need to be a certified "instructor" to educate your children. Why should this be so different? Because of a very slight risk factor??

Yes, we have that right. It illustrates my point.

I was in charge of coordinating with the home school community in one of the largest school districts in the country. They were supposed to register through my office and demonstrate compliance with the very liberal home school laws through me. Based on my experience, I can tell you that anything you can imagine about the home school community is true of at least some portion of it. Some of them were simply fabulous. I encountered situations where the students were getting educations far superior to anything they could get in regular schools because they were parented by rich University professors with access to all kinds of resources for them. On the other hand, I had parents come in and register for home schooling because, as they said openly, they were tired of those damn teachers reporting the bruises on their children, and some of those parents needed to have me read the one page application to them before they signed it and went home to educate their kids. In one case a family therapist called to tell me she was working with a 15-year old boy who had been home schooled all his life, and she said he could not have had 15 minutes of education in that time. What could be done about it? Nothing I said, because the law allows for homeschooling, and the silly rules that regulate it are a joke.

Just as in homeschooling, we do not have any idea what untrained gramps is going to do. I did not assume the worst. I said we don't know what he is going to do, and we therefore can't assume the best.

By the way, the reason I can be a scuba instructor and assume the worst is that we are trained to assume the worst is going to happen and be prepared to prevent it. That is how we keep people alive.

 

[jonhall]

That's easy to answer. Because most people that post here have an economical incentives to force you to get trained and buy gear before you every try the sport

I think more appropriately the term should be "entice" as opposed to "force". Thanks goodness I must have been around good people who never pressured me into anything, especially before ever trying the sport. I think I was more than halfway done with the OW course before I was approached about getting my own mask, snorkel, and fins.

I like those types of people, regardless of the activity/sport, who say go out and give it a try, practice a little bit, and then come in and see me and I'll set you up.

Sorry I am responding to the post and not the thread.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I'm not so sure about homeschooling, either. (I knew John would have something to say on it!) I have met a few homeschooled kids who were clearly well ahead of their public school peers because they have well-educated, extremely dedicated parents. But I have to wonder how many others out there would be better off in public school. If I were somehow put in a position where a homeschooling parent were asking something of me to assist in their instruction in a way I thought was inappropriate, I might avoid getting involved. Admittedly this isn't very analogous to a dive shop refusing to assist a potential customer, but as a broad principle, I don't see why a business can't make a decision to not do business with someone based on the business owner's own principles (so long as otherwise not prohibited by law).

The recent controversy surrounding those attempts to enact so-called Religious Freedom laws also come to mind ... as a discussion best had in the Pub. I think it's a very interesting controversy.