Solo dive on the U853 WWII German Submarine

[doctormike]

Interesting perspective, CT-Rich.

Leaving aside US, German, and international maritime law for a minute, and just talking about our own wishes and desires ...

If you had been a crew member who went down with the U853, what would you want?

And then answer the same question if you had been a crew member on the Black Point...

 

[mockney]

Thanks for the dive report, it sounds like it was an amazing dive, and I appreciate you sharing it. However, I do major concern here. I know that at other times divers have messed with the skeletal remains on U-853, so you certainly wouldn't be the first, and I know your intentions were good. But U853 is a war grave. The men that died there were sailors in the German Kriegsmarine, who, right or wrong died in service of there country. They should rest where they fell.

Completely agree, why on earth would you consider moving the remains of the sailors, who has given you permission or the right to disturb a war grave. Seems to me a total lack of respect, I don't think any penetration of the sites should be allowed or permitted. Its a war grave and should be treated as such and given the same respect as any other grave. Just because it may be interesting for you to dive does not give you or anybody else the right to disturb it. I actually felt quite uncomfortable reading your post, plus also your comment regarding NAZI sailors. Why would you say this?. I expect the majority of the boys on that ship were not members of the Nazi party but were like other guys on all sides in those times called up to fight in a war when they would rather be a home with their family's. Referring to them all as Nazi's shows a certain level of ignorance on your part but not surprised as you seem comfortable to admit you freely and without consideration disturb war graves. You should really reconsider how you choose to spend your time keeping yourself 'mentally healthy'.

 

[FiddlerOnTheRoof]

The U853 is falling apart at a quick rate due to the obvious conditions under water, currents, etc... Many divers, including myself have had the care and much respect for it and the fact that it is a war grave. Unfortunately there are many who do not respect it as I have personally experienced first hand. There are many private boats who visit it every year with the intention of looking for a "souvenir"... I have been diving the U853 since the late 80's and recall the news about a diver who tried to take home a piece of bone from the U853. Ever since, many divers, especially the ones who penetrate the wreck, as I do, have taken upon ourselves to pickup bones and place them inside out of the easy reach of most.

I firmly believe that I or any divers who move a bone to place it inside in a protected area are doing a respectful action as I would not like to see my ancestors, or someone's loved ones bones sitting in somebody's scuba collection. If those bones belonged to one of my family members, I would be very thankful if someone took care of them as such.

---------- Post added May 31st, 2015 at 08:52 PM ----------

I did not say anything bad or disrespectful about the NAZI soldiers! Perhaps you should read it again carefully. Then go here and learn about it: Nazism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[mockney]

I think you will find 'fiddler' that all the Nazi's you refer to on the U-Boat were actually members of the Kreigsmarine. Like I already said the Nazi party is just that a political party and assuming that they are all members is an assumption on your part and not a very educated one. I expect most of the boys were under 20 and probably couldnt give a toss about politics one way or the other.

My point being just because you happened to be a German did not automatically make you Nazi. Thankfully both you and me are living in an era where we are able to have a political choice (you may be either republican or democrat, I may be either Labour or conservative). Anyway this is a scuba forum so I think I made opinion quite clear (and thankfully I am able to do that in today's world). Irrespective on if you believe you are doing the right thing or not you should not be attempting to move any remains. Your intentions may be good but you don't have permission and if you felt the site was at risk you should report it to the correct authorities. My belief is that any war grave should not be penetrated, and certainly not just for your own sense of fun or adventure.

 

[AfterDark]

Completely agree, why on earth would you consider moving the remains of the sailors, who has given you permission or the right to disturb a war grave. Seems to me a total lack of respect, I don't think any penetration of the sites should be allowed or permitted. Its a war grave and should be treated as such and given the same respect as any other grave. Just because it may be interesting for you to dive does not give you or anybody else the right to disturb it. I actually felt quite uncomfortable reading your post, plus also your comment regarding NAZI sailors. Why would you say this?. I expect the majority of the boys on that ship were not members of the Nazi party but were like other guys on all sides in those times called up to fight in a war when they would rather be a home with their family's. Referring to them all as Nazi's shows a certain level of ignorance on your part but not surprised as you seem comfortable to admit you freely and without consideration disturb war graves. You should really reconsider how you choose to spend your time keeping yourself 'mentally healthy'.

Back in the 70's- 80's ? The German govt requested diving not be allowed on the sub. For a while the USCG or USN would try to prevent access to the sub welding plates and hatches shut. Private parties would go down and cut the welds and open the wreck again. I guess they gave up and diving has been common on the sub since the 1980's when I 1st dove it. It isn't enforceable to stop diving on the sub the resources aren't there and there other priorities.

It is a shame that the sub had to be sunk and those men killed. The order to cease action had been given. The captain either hadn't heard or didn't care. When I sit in a boat over that sub and look at what a trap that captain got his sub into it never ceases to amaze me. There was no place to hide and no where to run. I didn't see any demeaning comments about Nazi sailors. I bet if an SS officer had asked those sailors before leaving port if they were Nazis they would have all clicked their heels and shouted heil hitler! To say no would have invited the firing squad.

 

[FiddlerOnTheRoof]

The Kriegsmarine was the navy of Nazi Germany from 1935 to 1945. It superseded the Imperial German Navy of World War I and the inter-war Reichsmarine. The Kriegsmarine was one of three official branches of the Wehrmacht, the armed forces of Nazi Germany. Just as the US Navi is the navi of Democratic United States, etc, etc... Obviously YOU need to do some reading and understanding.

As for diving/penetrating war wrecks, war wrecks and such, it is a very common practice around the world. Is it right to do it or no? Well that would be another topic and many would agree and many would not. I respect your feelings about it but you on the other hand have called me ignorant on this thread a few times already.

 

[doctormike]

Your intentions may be good

I actually agree with you that moving bones doesn't seem like the right thing to do, but I'm also still convinced that the OPs intentions were good.

but you don't have permission and if you felt the site was at risk you should report it to the correct authorities.

To whom do you report the normal and expected corrosion and collapse of an ocean wreck?

My belief is that any war grave should not be penetrated

Well, diving on a wreck, penetrating a wreck, moving things around and taking things out are all progressively higher degrees of "dive pressure" that can impact any shipwreck. Are you drawing the line at penetration, but it's OK to dive the wreck in general? Is running a line on the outside with placements on the structure OK? Can I still dive or penetrate the San Diego, off Long Island?

and certainly not just for your own sense of fun or adventure.

Unless we are talking about commercial diving or scientific research, all of the diving discussed in this forum is done for fun.

---------- Post added May 31st, 2015 at 09:33 PM ----------

The captain either hadn't heard or didn't care.

Now THIS is the really interesting question of the last naval battle of WW2, and we will probably never know the answer for sure. Doenitz had given the order to cease all offensive operations. If Fromsdorf (24 year old commander of the U-853) didn't get the message like all the other U-boat commanders did, then the loss of his crew was a preventable wartime tragedy. If he DID get it, then he just straight up murdered those 12 American sailors on the Black Point.

 

[CT-Rich]

Two options on this. 1) I stay where I fell with my crew mates. 2) My body be recovered and repatriated to my family or buried in a military cemetery. Having some tourist moving remains around for whatever reason isn't on the list. I can't imagine that anyone would approve of an American war grave being exhumed because some farmer thought the body would be better suited on the other side of road. The German Gov't knows where the sub is. The identity of who those men are is well documented. If they wanted the men buried in Germany, I could certainly see them removing them.

When exploring a wreck, human remains need to be respected. If I were a sailor on the Black Point I would expect to have all our graves respected.....
Thoughtless divers taking bones was mentioned in "Shadow Divers" but I don't know how widespread the problem is. Taking artifacts is also problematic, but there is a big difference between taking a plate and taking a man's watch and taking his femur.

My Father, a Naval Academy Graduate, would have disowned me if he found out I touched a war grave. It would have been one of a very few things that would have truly upset him.

You did say "Nazi sailors." They weren't, most of them were hoping to survive the war and go home. With a casualty rate of 70% at this late stage of the war, no one expected Germany to win and they knew they were going out on a suicide mission, all the sadder...

I haven't dove the sub, yet. I was supposed to go on it in the 1980's but the conditions on put us on an alternate dive site, so I missed out. Is the moving of remains inside the sub, away from the hatches and battle damage a common practice? Has anyone else heard of this?

https://www.usnwc.edu/About/News/November-2014/Naval-War-College-Honors-Fallen-German-Sailors.aspx

---------- Post added May 31st, 2015 at 10:00 PM ----------

Most subs at the end of the war made decisions about surrender in an open manner. Surrender to a allied ship or port or head for a neutral country. This was the only one that kept fighting. It is possible that Fromsdorf decided (unilaterally) to commit "suicide by cop." A number of Germans (and Japanese) killed themselves at the end of the war. But it certainly wasn't a huge number. I can't imagine that this boat crew took a vote and decided to take one for the Fuhrer... I could see a the two or three officers NCOs who new the war ended deciding to lie to the rest of the crew, but that late in the game I doubt they would...

 

[doctormike]

It is possible that Fromsdorf decided (unilaterally) to commit "suicide by cop."

It ain't suicide if you take your crew with you! But seriously, a fascinating topic.

If any of you are in the NYC area on June 10th, the monthly speaker for our dive club will be Bill Palmer, captain of the Thunderfish out of Mystic, CT. He will be speaking on this exact topic...

Meetings | The NYC Sea Gypsies

Admission is free, although our membership chair will probably push you to join up.

 

[JohnnyC]

Interesting dive report. We can discuss the merits of any penetration of a war grave until the cows come home, however, we are all aware of unscrupulous "souvenir" hunters who have no problems taking things off wrecks that they shouldn't. It seems that they are the divers who select targets of opportunity.

Are responsible wreck divers supposed to shut their eyes, cover their ears, and scream "lalalala" pretending that it doesn't happen and leave remains for the ethically challenged among our sport? Or do responsible wreck divers respect the dead, and take preventative measures to make sure that those sailors remain with their comrades, free from the worry that their bones will end up on somebodies mantle, where not only are they on display, but they have been separated from their comrades?

My personal opinion is that war graves should be free from penetration, one should experience them with ones eyes. There are plenty of other shipwrecks to penetrate. However, when it becomes obvious that the hands-off approach will not be respected, I think it far less of an insult to those men to insure their final resting place is among their fellow sailors away from prying eyes and hands, than to allow the plunder of their remains out of self-righteousness. Being sanctimonious is just as disrespectful, if not more. And if the Germans ever decide to repatriate their sailors, they can be assured that divers have done the utmost to preserve their resting place, rather than allow grave robbers easy pickings.

Fiddler, it's my opinion that you did the right thing to make sure that those sailors remain together.