ams511
Contributor
Jim in one of the earlier posts in this thread it was mentioned that HOG switched from USA production to Far Eastern production, is that true?
Whats wrong with the Scubapro X-Tek Pure
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Jim in one of the earlier posts in this thread it was mentioned that HOG switched from USA production to Far Eastern production, is that true?
OP
ripman3
Contributor
I was looking at spening $500...
$600 wont kill me either...
I just want something that is good and will last.
I am sure this wont be my last bp/w but i want to get a good start. I am also a diving "crack head" I have only been diving for 7 months, and already have way to much gear. (Still looking to get more)
$600 wont kill me either...
I just want something that is good and will last.
I am sure this wont be my last bp/w but i want to get a good start. I am also a diving "crack head" I have only been diving for 7 months, and already have way to much gear. (Still looking to get more)
ams511
Contributor
Leisure pro has a reputation for dealing so it is possible to purchase gear under their listed price. They are a Scubapro, Hollis, Manta, and Dive Rite dealer. You can see each piece of gear in person and discuss the pros and cons of each piece with the sales person. Leisure Pro does have a good rep for customer service. The big downside from purchasing from them is the sales tax.
---------- Post added February 18th, 2015 at 04:01 AM ----------
I didn't read the original post. I replied to the later posts.
I'm pretty objective about these, since I own a few different brands I'm not married to any of them.
I feel they are are comparable, which I stated.
There is no "better' when it comes to back plates and wings.......the damn things are all pretty close.
I think when people are saying that DSS is 'better", perhaps they are considering overall cost in their judgement call.
I get that you don't like them because Tobin pissed you off.
But being a detractor for that reason....is much the same as some of the cheer leading.
I usually dive my Halcyon...because I like it quite a bit.
But being fair.....DSS makes VERY nice gear. Anyone that has used one knows it.
I know Tobin has gotten into some pissing contests on the forum; but he has also been very helpful on here.
At least he does reply to people on the forum......perhaps it's not always a good thing, depending on who you are.
Why should the OP listen to proponents of any brand on the internet?
I have no idea........but I suppose that's why he posted, because he wanted to listen.
You should probably read the posts more closely before commenting. The objection is not which one is better but people claiming DSS is of superior quality than other rigs on the market. That is simply not true. As Jim points out a ballistic bladder is more resistant to puncture and pinch flats than a urethane bladder. What is better, being more or less resistant to pinch flats? What does DSS use? What does Halcyon use? This does not depend on my feelings towards DSS.
Again, if you purchase any item direct you need to deal with that company. If you purchase an item from a store then you deal with the store and the store deals with the manufacturer. Compare Leisure Pro's terms with DSS's. Which is better?
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OP
ripman3
Contributor
I was gonna go to Leisure Pro this week to look at BP/Ws. They are just 20 mins. from me. Im not sure what im gonna get anymore. I do love hearing what people have to say. I have a lot to think about now. I am probably over thinking, I tend to do that. But i think that is part of the fun in buying new toys. I thank everyone here for there advice. My LDS didnt have much to say on the subject. I feel bad not buying from them (They are great people) but they wanted to sell me the most expensive BP/W they could find. It was over 900 dollars and i didnt want to spend that much.
As I stated, I simply replied to the later posts.
My comments were on point.
Originally I didn't see the need to read every post; however, I just went back and read them (I'm stuck in the desert. I have time.)
I didn't read any posts where anyone mentioned DSS being superior. There were some comments about them being equal, which I agree with.
Apologies for having my hand on the lever and contributing to the thread derailment.
Enjoy shopping OP.......you could throw a dart at a board and hit a winner. There are many good choices.
Cheers,
Mitch
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I think DSS, Oxycheq, and Halcyon have the highest quality plates out there, the fit and finish of them is just superior, DSS doesn't polish to a mirror, but that doesn't bother me and I prefer it, I do prefer the steeper angle of the Halcyon but their backplate is too short for me so I don't have a lot of options. Manta makes most of the plates for the other guys since they bought Highland Millworks a few years ago, Dive Rites come from them, when you are looking between companies like Hog, Hollis, Dive Rite, etc that aren't making the plates in house, it's just find what is cheapest because they are all the same. If you take Oxycheq, DSS, Halcyon, and one of the Highland plates and put them on a table it is pretty obvious there is a difference between them, but if you take the 3 above from Highland they are all pretty much the same.
Wing quality, yes it is true that Hog is getting wings from overseas happened a few years ago, if anyone is particularly interested, I can forward you the email from Jack, there is talk about coming back to US production, but it hasn't gone anywhere passed talk. Their wings are built to the same quality as everyone else getting them from over there which is actually very good, Hollis DRiS Trianta, Scubapro etc.
Scubapro is owned by Johnson, Johnson is owned by Jarden, they also own Coleman, K2, Rawlings, Oster, Mr Coffee, Diamond Match, Yankee Candle, etc etc. Good luck dealing with them.... With a plate or harness you obviously won't have to, but wing warranties can be interesting.
Tobin is Tobin, that's about all you can say, he will be very active trying to help you until you try to step over the line, I can't blame him, he's been burned before, and he's in the business of making money, can't fault him for that. The triglides, OPV's and what not are all actually made in the DSS factory, they have the milling and injection molding equipment in house. The leaking of air from the wings may be due to something other than the wing itself, OPV hasn't made a perfect seal impression yet, might have a slight leak from inflator etc, put it in a tub and find where it's hissing.
As far as general wing stuff, the inner bladder Halcyon uses is superior to the standard urethane for pinch flats and puncture, Hollis uses a thinner inner bladder, saw one get a puncture in a cave of all places last week, the thickness of the urethane will set apart the generic wings from each other, but the covers will all be about the same. Oxycheq has the thickest, but it makes packing the things a colossal pain. Long story short is they all work, they all work well, you aren't going to find any major differences in build quality, it's where you want your money to go and which companies stand behind their products. Hog, Dive Rite, DSS, and Halcyon would be the only companies that would get my money for wings, they all stand behind what they do and are known for it, Hollis does now have a nifty new warranty on their wings but Hog has the same one and it is cheaper.... As far as the bladderless wings there are pros and cons, the pro is they are much cheaper to manufacture, half the labor involved, the major con is that during a normal puncture, the cover of the wing can slow the projectile down significantly and also potentially dull it to the point that it will push the inner bladder in so it doesn't rupture, in a bladderless design that obviously isn't the case and any puncture will result in a failure of the wing. Any time you have a bladderless wing, please carry redundant buoyancy with you.
I like Tobin, I also very much like Lamar, either is a good choice, you can also mix and match with no problems, I like Tobins plates better because of the multiple sizes, I prefer to use an STA with singles and I have a Dive Rite travel wing that I use, with doubles I have an OMS 45lb wing, and use a custom built Dive Rite nomad for sidemount. I'm not a fan of the zipperless design from DSS, but the reality is that unless you're doing a lot of wreck penetration, which I do, then the odds of you having to take it out are pretty minimal. If the Scubapro plate is indeed made by JJ and his crew down at Halcyon, and if you fit the normal plate size, then I wouldn't hesitate to purchase that, same reason that the Halcyon regulators are a better buy than their Scubapro equivalents right now, same regulator, better price. Get that plate and find a wing that you like, there are plenty out there, though the Trianta from DRiS is hard to beat for cost/quality if you want to use a STA. The shape is similar to the Halcyon Eclipse which I still think is the best overall singles wing on the market, I just can't stomach the price for the 2 or 3 single tank dives I do a year
Transplate is a great harness, just a bit unnecessary for most divers, unless you are having to walk significantly distances with your gear on or have really bad shoulder/back issues *where you should be going to sidemount anyway*, then the Transplate is excessive, either the standard one piece harness, or something like the Dive Rite Deluxe harness if you are barrel chested and the one piece harness doesn't follow your body contours should work for most people, they're also very cheap....
Oh, depending on where in NYC you are, if you can justify a trek down to Philly, Northeast Scuba Supply has Dive Rite, DSS, Hollis, Hog, Apeks, Oxycheq, and their own plate in stock, as well as wings from the above plus Manta, Agir Bokk, ATS, Light Monkey, Scubapro, and xDeep. It may be worth the 2 hour drive or train ride down if you want to see the other brands in person
Wing quality, yes it is true that Hog is getting wings from overseas happened a few years ago, if anyone is particularly interested, I can forward you the email from Jack, there is talk about coming back to US production, but it hasn't gone anywhere passed talk. Their wings are built to the same quality as everyone else getting them from over there which is actually very good, Hollis DRiS Trianta, Scubapro etc.
Scubapro is owned by Johnson, Johnson is owned by Jarden, they also own Coleman, K2, Rawlings, Oster, Mr Coffee, Diamond Match, Yankee Candle, etc etc. Good luck dealing with them.... With a plate or harness you obviously won't have to, but wing warranties can be interesting.
Tobin is Tobin, that's about all you can say, he will be very active trying to help you until you try to step over the line, I can't blame him, he's been burned before, and he's in the business of making money, can't fault him for that. The triglides, OPV's and what not are all actually made in the DSS factory, they have the milling and injection molding equipment in house. The leaking of air from the wings may be due to something other than the wing itself, OPV hasn't made a perfect seal impression yet, might have a slight leak from inflator etc, put it in a tub and find where it's hissing.
As far as general wing stuff, the inner bladder Halcyon uses is superior to the standard urethane for pinch flats and puncture, Hollis uses a thinner inner bladder, saw one get a puncture in a cave of all places last week, the thickness of the urethane will set apart the generic wings from each other, but the covers will all be about the same. Oxycheq has the thickest, but it makes packing the things a colossal pain. Long story short is they all work, they all work well, you aren't going to find any major differences in build quality, it's where you want your money to go and which companies stand behind their products. Hog, Dive Rite, DSS, and Halcyon would be the only companies that would get my money for wings, they all stand behind what they do and are known for it, Hollis does now have a nifty new warranty on their wings but Hog has the same one and it is cheaper.... As far as the bladderless wings there are pros and cons, the pro is they are much cheaper to manufacture, half the labor involved, the major con is that during a normal puncture, the cover of the wing can slow the projectile down significantly and also potentially dull it to the point that it will push the inner bladder in so it doesn't rupture, in a bladderless design that obviously isn't the case and any puncture will result in a failure of the wing. Any time you have a bladderless wing, please carry redundant buoyancy with you.
I like Tobin, I also very much like Lamar, either is a good choice, you can also mix and match with no problems, I like Tobins plates better because of the multiple sizes, I prefer to use an STA with singles and I have a Dive Rite travel wing that I use, with doubles I have an OMS 45lb wing, and use a custom built Dive Rite nomad for sidemount. I'm not a fan of the zipperless design from DSS, but the reality is that unless you're doing a lot of wreck penetration, which I do, then the odds of you having to take it out are pretty minimal. If the Scubapro plate is indeed made by JJ and his crew down at Halcyon, and if you fit the normal plate size, then I wouldn't hesitate to purchase that, same reason that the Halcyon regulators are a better buy than their Scubapro equivalents right now, same regulator, better price. Get that plate and find a wing that you like, there are plenty out there, though the Trianta from DRiS is hard to beat for cost/quality if you want to use a STA. The shape is similar to the Halcyon Eclipse which I still think is the best overall singles wing on the market, I just can't stomach the price for the 2 or 3 single tank dives I do a year
Transplate is a great harness, just a bit unnecessary for most divers, unless you are having to walk significantly distances with your gear on or have really bad shoulder/back issues *where you should be going to sidemount anyway*, then the Transplate is excessive, either the standard one piece harness, or something like the Dive Rite Deluxe harness if you are barrel chested and the one piece harness doesn't follow your body contours should work for most people, they're also very cheap....
Oh, depending on where in NYC you are, if you can justify a trek down to Philly, Northeast Scuba Supply has Dive Rite, DSS, Hollis, Hog, Apeks, Oxycheq, and their own plate in stock, as well as wings from the above plus Manta, Agir Bokk, ATS, Light Monkey, Scubapro, and xDeep. It may be worth the 2 hour drive or train ride down if you want to see the other brands in person
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You're getting all kinds of good advice here, so I can see I'm not really needed in the gear advice aspect. But if you have any Leisure Pro specific questions, don't hesitate to reach out and let me know what I can do. nickb@leisurepro.com works best. I don't work in our sales department (I'm a remote employee actually), so I can't make any promises, but I do frequently hear about package deals being made, so that may help with pricing.
I've used Halcyon, I currently dive Hollis, and I plan on switching to Dive Rite, so I either have experience with or knowledge about a few of the options being discussed. I won't pollute the recommendations here by chiming in with mine (I'm pretty decent at adjusting to any gear on my body and think most tech gear is pretty similar, so I tend to buy based on the company more than the gear), but if you have questions about my choices, feel free to ask me in an email.
I've used Halcyon, I currently dive Hollis, and I plan on switching to Dive Rite, so I either have experience with or knowledge about a few of the options being discussed. I won't pollute the recommendations here by chiming in with mine (I'm pretty decent at adjusting to any gear on my body and think most tech gear is pretty similar, so I tend to buy based on the company more than the gear), but if you have questions about my choices, feel free to ask me in an email.
Cert1967
Contributor
Johnson Outdoors Inc. is listed on the NASDAQ, symbol JOUT. The Johnsons are indeed heavily involved and control the company via a special class of stock. It is a stand-alone publicly held company.
Helen knocked down 2.2M last year. Sales at SP are down for the latest reporting quarter - perhaps a reflection of the overall industry. Other market segments did better.
Reuters details at
Johnson Outdoors Inc (JOUT.O) People | Reuters.com
Google Finance at
https://www.google.com/finance?q=jout&ei=FQjlVID6Ac2PsgeghIHADg
Description
Johnson Outdoors Inc is a manufacturer and marketer of branded seasonal, outdoor recreation products used primarily for fishing from a boat, diving, paddling, hiking and camping. The Company operates in four segments, which include Marine Electronics, Outdoor Equipment, Watercraft and Diving. The Marine Electronic segment includes the brands Minn Kota, Humminbird and Cannon. The Outdoor Equipment segment includes the brands Eureka!, Jetboil, Silva and Tech40. The Watercraft segment sells kayaks and canoes under the brand names Old Town, Ocean Kayak, Necky kayaks, Carlisle paddles and Extrasport personal flotation devices. The diving segment sells underwater diving products under SCUBAPRO and SUBGEAR brand names.
Officers and directors
[TABLE="class: id-mgmt-table, width: 100%"]
[TR="class: goog-zippy-header goog-zippy-collapsed"]
[TD="class: p linkbtn"]Helen P. Johnson-Leipold[/TD]
[TD="class: i"][/TD]
[TD="class: t"]Chairman of the Board, Chief Executive Officer[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: grey-top goog-zippy-header goog-zippy-collapsed"]
[TD="class: p linkbtn"]Thomas F. Pyle Jr.[/TD]
[TD="class: i"][/TD]
[TD="class: t"]Independent Vice Chairman of the Board[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: grey-top goog-zippy-header goog-zippy-collapsed"]
[TD="class: p linkbtn"]David W. Johnson[/TD]
[TD="class: i"][/TD]
[TD="class: t"]Chief Financial Officer, Vice President[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
To clarify Johnson Outdoors, the owner/parent of ScubaPro, is not a sub of any other company - it's a public listed company on the NASDAQ under the symbol JOUT as said by Cert above.
Many also confuse JOUT with Jarden or say ScubaPro is owned by Jarden. That's incorrect - very different companies. Jarden is a separate, much larger and more diversified public company.
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fair enough, I thought I saw something on the Scubapro computer recall yesterday that had Jarden on it though, will go back and look, either way, big corporation.
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