Why is a Jacket BC better than a BP/W?

[diversteve]

The tank fits the cam-band the same as it does on a jacket. The regs screw into the valve in the same manner. The inflator hose clips onto the LPI fitting in the same way too.

Why would anybody be required to set a diver's kit up? I've heard of liveaboards where the crew do this, but this is a hospitality thing rather than for any practical reasons. As far as I'm concerned, nobody sets up my kit but me. My equipment set-up is my responsibility and I want the reassurance of knowing that the kit has been set up properly. Familiar kit is of benefit to the crew, but I do not buy the kit for their benefit.

It's a selling point in the Caribbean. Google Valet Diving.

Most liveaboards I've been on ask you to set your gear up the first time the way you want it. Then all they have to do is remove your 1st stage, refill with the whip and screw your first stage back on. Sometimes (only) I check that they've done it right. Usually I check my pressure to ensure I didn't get missed (happened once) and go dive.

 

[Colliam7]

The reason jackets these days have to have so much lift is because they have to account for the biggest mega tank that might be used like a steel 130, plus they have to support all the integrated weight that might be used in the high end of the spectrum (cold water).

Good points, and I really had not thought about them in quite that way - they are intended as a 'one size fits all', in the sense of providing lift for whatever set of conditions exist where they are used, not actual body fit.

For the OP, I think there are several comments that suggest a possible advantage of jackets is that they (are perceived to) offer 'immediate versatility'.

 

[mills705]

A BCD is better than a bpw due to familiarity alone.
Interesting now though that some manufacturers are creating bc/wing hybrids. Look at the mares hybrid pro tech where it can literally become a wing. I think these will be the future of diving. I certianly love mine

 

[DivemasterDennis]

For me , given the type of diving I do ( recreational; single tank, photo and video, I am comfortable in and feel I have to tune buoyancy less in my jacket bcd's, but that's just me. We train our students in jackets, and I think instructors should use the basic set up their students use. If I wanhted to dive doubles, I would go to bp/wing. I found side mount to be uncomfortable ad well as unfamiliar. I think habit and familiarity are the primary reasons I stick with my jackets.
DivemasterDennis

 

[TSandM]

I find it interesting that people are saying sizing isn't an issue with jackets. It is a BIG issue. If you have the wrong size jacket, you simply can't adjust it to fit, and the tank will be unstable on your back. On the other hand, a backplate with simple harness is almost infinitely adjustable. We have our student rigs set up so that they can be adjusted very quickly, using plastic buckles instead of triglides to set the crotch strap, for example.

The things I see newer divers wanting, that makes them look at standard BCs, are integrated weights, pockets, and padding. There is a pervasive and profound loathing of weight belts, and although there are weight harnesses that accomplish the same thing as integrated weights, they are an additional thing to purchase and to don (and to remember to bring to the dive site!). Pockets can be on one's exposure protection (and generally work better there), but again, wetsuits don't come with them, so you either have to buy pocket shorts or buy pockets and glue them on, or have them sewn on for you. Another expense and hassle, when you could buy a BC that comes with them. And finally, the heavy tank and weights hanging from the shoulders are uncomfortable, and there is a strong perception that padding the straps and back will make that better (which it really doesn't).

One must also acknowledge the convenience of quick releases for getting out of gear. Although a properly adjusted harness is not difficult to don or take off, it's not as easy as popping a clip and just stepping out of the rig.

It's easy for me to understand why people gravitate to jackets or one-piece back inflate BCs. The advantages of a backplate system are only obvious to someone who dives a LOT and begins to value having very few things that can break, and a modular system where any piece can be replaced on its own (or repaired). In addition, if no one has ever talked to you about weight distribution for proper trim, the value of having five pounds of your ballast on your back is not obvious. And if you dive in the tropics and carry very little weight to begin with, the advantage of a BC with no intrinsic buoyancy is not compelling.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

The reason jackets these days have to have so much lift is because they have to account for the biggest mega tank that might be used like a steel 130, plus they have to support all the integrated weight that might be used in the high end of the spectrum (cold water). Combine these two and a 60 lb lift bladder is about right to float all this on the surface plus a little extra for contingencies.

Not really ... I've got somewhere between 1300 and 1500 dives on my 35-lb Torus wing, mostly diving it in cold water using steel 119's and 130's. Besides my 11-lb backplate, I'm using a 20-lb weightbelt and almost always carrying a camera that's 3-4 lbs negative. Sometimes I'll also be carrying an AL40 bottle and using a scooter. Even with all of that I've never felt the need for a bigger wing.

I did have a 60-lb wing for my double-119's back in the day when I dived back-mounted doubles. But that was also enough to accommodate a couple of deco bottles and a scooter ... and it was still probably a bit of overkill. The only reason you need a bigger wing is because of the weight of all the gas you're carrying ... and the buoyancy difference between your tanks at the beginning and ending of a dive where you're carrying 320 cubic feet of gas and planning to use 240 cubic feet of it.

I'm not one who likes to use the word "never", when it comes to describing what people need and don't need ... but I can't imagine any scenario where a diver in a single tank would need 60 lbs of lift in a BCD. It's just an unnecessary amount of bulk that makes managing your equipment more difficult than it needs to be.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added August 21st, 2014 at 09:04 AM ----------

The tank fits the cam-band the same as it does on a jacket. The regs screw into the valve in the same manner. The inflator hose clips onto the LPI fitting in the same way too.

Why would anybody be required to set a diver's kit up? I've heard of liveaboards where the crew do this, but this is a hospitality thing rather than for any practical reasons. As far as I'm concerned, nobody sets up my kit but me. My equipment set-up is my responsibility and I want the reassurance of knowing that the kit has been set up properly. Familiar kit is of benefit to the crew, but I do not buy the kit for their benefit.

I've been to several locales where the crew is required to set up their customer's equipment. It's pretty much standard practice in several popular tourist locales. By "required", I mean by management at the resort ... who consider it a service to their clientele. At first I would ask the crew to let me do it ... after some frustrations and having to redo the gear a few times I adopted a habit of just showing them "how I liked it" upon arrival and letting them do their job.

No, you do not buy kit for the benefit of the crew at whatever dive op you're using ... on the other hand, vacation is so much more pleasant if you just let these people do what their boss tells them to do and find cooperative ways to make it work for you ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added August 21st, 2014 at 09:09 AM ----------

All true.

I think the reason most dive shops and manufacturers don't push and sell BP/W are because they just don't look appealing to the average diver.
I could see some average recreational vacation diver saying "I'm not wearing that!".
What average diver would look at a flat metal doubles plate and think it looks comfortable? Even for single tank diving. Not only that but assembly and set up can be a pain plus if a STA in involved there's another layer of attachment and nuts/bolts. It takes a gear education to learn about BP/W and most people have lives, diving is just something they do on vacation to look at pretty fishes. They're not gear fanatics like most people on SB (very small minority world wide).
BP/W looks to "techie" and specialized. Most people don't care about tech, they just get what the dive shop tells them to get which is a jacket.

Familiarity has a lot to do with it ... people tend to use what they were taught in, unless someone comes along and says "here, try this". I see a lot more BP/W rigs in cold water because the backplate allows people to remove some weight from their hips, which is a very desireable thing for people who ... due to their exposure gear ... tend to wear 30+ lbs of weight. In the tropics that benefit doesn't really apply ... so the arguments for a BP/W are less compelling. That said, every time I've ever had someone tell me that the backplate looks uncomfortable I offer to let them try it. You'd be surprised how many people will do so ... out of curiosity if nothing else. I've yet to have any of them tell me it was uncomfortable after a test drive ... even those who happily go back to using what's been working for them.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[CaboJim]

I can see this a personal choice. there is no wrong or right perspective.
Personally, I used & loved the Nighthawk for years.
I had finally worn it out after over 600 dives.
Recently, I bought a BPW set up. I could never get it down to where I felt comfortable with it. Perhaps it was the donut wing.. or the
simple harness & the reality of having to go back to a weight belt.. Back to the Knighthawk...
When you say Jacket style BCD, that means to me a BCD where the air bladder is not back inflated.
We used to call those rib crushers...

 

[dmoore19]

I have only seen one BP/W being used. It was on a Divemaster in Cozumel and had the big blue H (very faded) on it. While there are many advantages to the BP/W and it is much touted on Scubaboard it isn't the norm.

The same thing goes for the posts regarding the local dive shop. There is a lot of venom in the posts regarding the dive shop. I suppose that some of it is proper and just but I do not believe that every dive shop in the world is out to get you and rip you off. This seems to be a Scubaboard exclusive too.

I think a lot of this is because most people who post here are new to the sport and asking questions or the seasoned diver with thousands of dives to their credit. The majority of people lie somewhere between these 2 and are vacation divers who do not want to do local dives because they don't the like cold and dark water of the local freshwater lake and don't have access to the coast. I know that here in CO this is the case but there are sure a lot of people who dive that live here.

People that like Scuba have huge differences in where, how and what they enjoy about this sport.

 

[rhwestfall]

10 years with a jacket that never fit me correct, 8 years with a back-inflate that still had horrible trim characteristics, 7 years with a BP/W.....

- I do miss how we used to slip out of them while on the surface, sit on them, jack them full of air, and make them a floating chair while waiting to get on the boat....

There is nothing I can say I prefer in the jacket style configuration... nothing...

 

[Mustard Dave]

All true.

I think the reason most dive shops and manufacturers don't push and sell BP/W are because they just don't look appealing to the average diver.
I could see some average recreational vacation diver saying "I'm not wearing that!".
What average diver would look at a flat metal doubles plate and think it looks comfortable? Even for single tank diving. Not only that but assembly and set up can be a pain plus if a STA in involved there's another layer of attachment and nuts/bolts. It takes a gear education to learn about BP/W and most people have lives, diving is just something they do on vacation to look at pretty fishes. They're not gear fanatics like most people on SB (very small minority world wide).
BP/W looks to "techie" and specialized. Most people don't care about tech, they just get what the dive shop tells them to get which is a jacket.

The STA does not make a difference. My BP&W is in the garage with the STA still attached. It has been like that for over a year since I stopped diving twins. If you want a BP&W for a simple single tank system only, there is no need to ever touch it after it has been assembled. If somebody couldn't work out that the two holes on the STA line up with the ones on the wing and the backplate, I'd seriously question whether they have sufficient intelligence to be able to dive.

A BP&W is a lump of metal with a few straps and a buoyancy cell - it is as basic as things come. The only notable difference is the lack of pinch clips and adjusters (in the case of a OPH) and the crotch strap. Technical divers do not like the BP&W and OPH because it is all techy and complex - they like it because it is simple and no nonsense. The BP&W is mostly uniform between divers and easy to understand your team members' kit, even if you don't fully subscribe to the DIR philosophy - that has got to be easier than loads of different BCDs with things like dumps in different places, Spare Airs and that silly Aqualung Dimension thing with the inflater on the hip.

Your last comment is the reason why jackets remain popular - they just get what the dive shop tells them to get.

It's a selling point in the Caribbean. Google Valet Diving.

Most liveaboards I've been on ask you to set your gear up the first time the way you want it. Then all they have to do is remove your 1st stage, refill with the whip and screw your first stage back on. Sometimes (only) I check that they've done it right. Usually I check my pressure to ensure I didn't get missed (happened once) and go dive.

I'm not disputing people have their gear set up for them. My point is that nobody has to set your gear up for you - it is choice rather than a requirement. Personally I would decline the offer and I would encourage others to do the same. Every diver should take personal responsibility for their kit. The sort of liveaboards I have been on work the same, except if you want a fill, you leave your first stage out, which tells the crew you want a fill. Once the kit is on the boat, there is no need to disassemble it though.

---------- Post added August 21st, 2014 at 05:47 PM ----------

I've been to several locales where the crew is required to set up their customer's equipment. It's pretty much standard practice in several popular tourist locales. By "required", I mean by management at the resort ... who consider it a service to their clientele. At first I would ask the crew to let me do it ... after some frustrations and having to redo the gear a few times I adopted a habit of just showing them "how I liked it" upon arrival and letting them do their job.

No, you do not buy kit for the benefit of the crew at whatever dive op you're using ... on the other hand, vacation is so much more pleasant if you just let these people do what their boss tells them to do and find cooperative ways to make it work for you ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

A simple 'No thank you - I prefer to set my own kit up' is enough. If you show them how you like your kit set up, and trust them to be able to do it afterwards, why can't you show them how you like your BP&W? Fundamentally it is no different to a Jacket in the manner in which you attach the tank and regs.