Deep diving advice that goes against conventional thought?

[PfcAJ]

I think what's missed is that divers that use SB come from all walks of life. There are three commercial divers on this thread who dive recreationaly (as you're aware).

Using surface supply or SCUBA on air doesn't change how inert gas narcosis effects anyone. My point is that many of us have experience diving in over 150 FSW for extended periods of time without IGN affecting us to such a degree that we were unsafe or unable to complete the job. Have you ever been incapable at 200' because of IGN?

I agree that commercial equipment (surface supply, comms, etc.) provide additional safety for the diver, but that's not what's in-question. Can a person be safe and competent on SCUBA over 150' with proper training and adequate experience?

Its certainly in question. When you write about how your able to deal with IGN in a completely different set of circumstances, that makes it different.

I contend that no, a diver is not safe with a high END. Sry.

 

[Akimbo]

... I don't personally want to try diving in the manner described in the OP ... nor would I recommend it to anyone interested in asking my opinion on the subject. How it pertains to the world of commercial diving isn't anything I either need or particularly care to know about either…

Fine, but how does that address Mike’s (the OP) valid question?

I read this somewhere else and just don't understand it. This is written by someone with supposedly at least 1000 or more deep dives under their belt, everything written sounds like advice that would kill you, but if the poster is for real and this is what they do, they obviously aren't dead after apparently years of doing this:

<Description deleted for brevity>

So how can this be? Have you met any other divers who can do this will no ill effects for so long?...

Some posters seem to equate explaining the question with promoting it. I haven’t seen that.

Deep air bounce dives, long horizontal penetration dives, and extended decompression dives on any gas or self-contained apparatus are all potentially dangerous… as is going underwater. Obviously deep air bounce dives can be successfully executed but nobody offers a merit badge for it. IMHO, understanding the issues is a greater deterrent than just saying “You need to take another course”, “You don’t need to know”, or “You will die”.

 

[Bob DBF]

Some posters seem to equate explaining the question with promoting it. I haven’t seen that.

Deep air bounce dives, long horizontal penetration dives, and extended decompression dives on any gas or self-contained apparatus are all potentially dangerous… as is going underwater. Obviously deep air bounce dives can be successfully executed but nobody offers a merit badge for it. IMHO, understanding the issues is a greater deterrent than just saying “You need to take another course”, “You don’t need to know”, or “You will die”.

My bold in the quote.

When I started diving, later when I certified, and the buddy's/mentors in the times along the way tried to increase my understanding of diving so that I could make an informed decision on my dive plans. Air was done because that was the choice, but the risks and procedures were given from day one, so that I consciously moderated my plunge into the depths, as well as other underwater pursuits.

The problem, as I see it, with training with platitudes is that someone with some talent looks at the training as a joke and further training as unnecessary. Once you are an OW diver, you don't have to take another class, and most don't.



Bob
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I may be old, but I'm not dead yet.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Once you are an OW diver, you don't have to take another class, and most don't.

Statistically, most stop diving within a year of having completed their OW class ... something like three out of every four from statistics I read years ago, when such things mattered to me.

I can only speak for my own clientele ... those I've taught over the past decade or so. The majority are still diving, most have gone on to take other classes as their tastes and goals have changed, and several are active cave and wreck divers. You can't ... or shouldn't ... really pursue that type of diving with just an OW certification ... not even the more thorough one they taught 50 years ago ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DCBC]

...When you write about how your able to deal with IGN in a completely different set of circumstances, that makes it different.

You seem to have missed my point. If I'm diving over 150 FSW how I deal with IGN has nothing to do with the make of mask I wear or the type of air delivery system I use.

You're insinuating that a Diver's equipment effects IGN which is incorrect. The air delivery system has no bearing on the effect that nitrogen has on a person's synapses and nerve membranes at increased partial pressure. IGN is caused by the gas itself and not equipment the diver uses.

There are thousands of divers diving all over the world daily on air below 150 FSW. IGN does not prevent these divers from conducting intricate experiments and work related activities. Such procedures are approved by every nation that I know of.

I understand that for a recreational diver, it's far easier to take a course in Trimix than to learn to deal with IGN. In today's generation many things are designed for instant gratification. People want it cheap and want it fast. Recreational diving however isn't limited to this segment of Society.

Recreational divers are from a number of generations, have various levels of training, experience and come from various walks of life (including professional divers). Some have learned to deal with IGN and have accepted the risk involved.

I suppose that some of us find it difficult to hear people say that Deep-air is foolish and not required because they happen to be Trimix certified. I believe that Cave, Wreck or diving with any mixture of gas is only foolish if that person isn't prepared through training, experience, health and fitness to make the dive within the confines of his safe diving envelope.

 

[Hawkwood]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Okay folks, enough is enough. Too much time has been wasted by a number of folks, including me, addressing threats, drug dealers, vigilantes, octopus hunters, grammar, the personalities of certain individuals, etc. These have NOTHING to do with the topic.

The topic relates to deep diving on air. Keep it that way. If you can't resist the bickering, either take it to PMs or use the "ignore" feature.

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[PfcAJ]

Good grief. Now it's about instant gratification culture. Ok guy...

If you can't see the obvious safety benefit of a commercial operation and all the accoutrements involved vs what normal tech divers have, I don't know what to say. The gas effect is the same, sure, but the peripherals are what makes the difference.

Im im not interested in learning to "deal" with narcosis when I don't have to anymore than I'm interested in "dealing" with being drink behind the wheel, and plenty of people get home every night after driving drunk. That does NOT make it safe. Incident free does not mean safe.

 

[DCBC]

...The gas effect is the same...

Yes it is. People complete Deep-air dives on SCUBA daily without incident. An increased margin of safety is achieved through experience and training. This is the same as any other aspect of diving including Trimix.

I'm not interested in learning to "deal" with narcosis when I don't have to anymore than I'm interested in "dealing" with being drink behind the wheel, and plenty of people get home every night after driving drunk.

That is your election and that should be respected. Cave divers, wreck divers, divers undertaking mandatory decompression, or divers using Deep-air all elect to take greater risk in their diving profile. Their decisions should also be respected. Their actions should not be compared to criminal activity simply because they choose to take risks that are different from the ones that you feel comfortable with.

That does NOT make it safe. Incident free does not mean safe.

If it looks like a Duck, walks like a Duck, quacks like a Duck, it's likely a Duck. If you want absolute safety, stay out of the water. Diving is not about being 100% safe, but diving within a framework of acceptable risk. Acceptable risk can only be defined for yourself, no one can define it for another.

Rather than throwing stones at how others dive, I think it's more beneficial to discuss the risks as they pertain to the individual. IGN does not affect everyone in the same way. This fact should also be respected. If you can't safely dive on air past 100 FSW, that doesn't mean that others have the same problem.

 

[PfcAJ]

Nah, I won't respect the idea that people can "manage" being drunk behind the wheel. Sorry. Nor will I respect the (false) idea that if you make it home after drinking and driving, that you were safe. Nope. I also won't respect a training program that suggests that being drunk is something that you can "handle", so its ok to drive. I have no respect for the advocation of recklessness in this day and age. We know better.

 

[Bob DBF]

Nah, I won't respect the idea that people can "manage" being drunk behind the wheel. Sorry. Nor will I respect the (false) idea that if you make it home after drinking and driving, that you were safe. Nope. I also won't respect a training program that suggests that being drunk is something that you can "handle", so its ok to drive.

You don't have to respect it, but it goes on all the time. As for managing being drunk behind the wheel, the law, in my state, allows you to do just that as long as the blood alcohol is below .08%.

I have no respect for the advocation of recklessness in this day and age. We know better.

I may have missed something in this thread, but I don't remember reading about advocating that others use Deep Air. It is reckless only when pursued in a reckless manner, or to quote Mr. Gump "stupid is as stupid does".
You may know better for you and it is your choice however, there are other choices and divers have been using Deep Air responsibly for decades. As for the rest of the "We", have them log in and comment for themselves.



Bob
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That's my point, people, by and large, are not taught that diving can be deadly, they are taught how safe it is, and they are not equipped with the skills, taught and trained to the level required to be useful in an emergency.