Appropriate No of Logged dives to become a DM/instructor

[James R]

He told me there was no real hope that I would get hired unless I was also an instructor. People who are just DMs pretty much do grunt work at almost no pay, and there's a whole pile of them wanting to do it.

This is exactly what I was told by people living in Hawaii and other places, and is a big part of why I went forward with being an instructor.

 

[100days-a-year]

Colliam,my recommendation is based on having dove with several hundred different divers of varying experience from novice to more dives than me and certified to more extremes.
And proficiency in environments from tropical and shallow to rough seas and mixed gas with extended deco.There are of course outliers but I think my numbers reflect 2 things.
One the DM candidate will have most likely have seen a years worth of seasonal variations.
Two the DM candidate will have time to hopefully become proficient enough to qualify as a professional.

The Instructor number is for similar reasons, I do not believe the number of dives required are nearly sufficient to insure the ability to convey real world experience in many agencies...I think the GUE guys are on the right track as far skills assessment,having dove with and been appalled by the lack of basic ability in more than one instructor.Of course regional conditions alone can ensure some candidates will have had to master skills thoroughly.Not likely to see a quarry,tropical or pool instructor nearly as comfortable underwater as one from the PNW,NE or Mid Atlantic.

I don't think we treat this with all the seriousness it deserves,in many occupations it would be years until you were trusted enough to be entrusted with other's lives.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

Would you continue to hold that opinion if you were a dive operator looking for employees? I bet you would, and I suspect you would not let anyone force you to hire an inadequately prepared DM to work for you.
If you are regularly diving with operators that put brand new, inadequately trained DMs in important roles involving diver safety, then I suggest you do a better job scouting out operators before you book a trip.

?? Yes....I would certainly continue to hold my opinion that DM students should have more diving experience, rather than the current 60(46 dives). Even if I were an operator that needed employees, I would insist on more experience.

The dive operators that I have used during my travels have all had experienced DMs. Alaska, Palau, Yap, Chuuk, and UAE have all had competent DMs, some of them were Instructors, which is very common.

I believe we share a similar opinion John.

Cheers,
Mitchell

 

[boulderjohn]

?? Yes....I would certainly continue to hold my opinion that DM students should have more diving experience, rather than the current 60(46 dives). Even if I were an operator that needed employees, I would insist on more experience.

The dive operators that I have used during my travels have all had experienced DMs. Alaska, Palau, Yap, Chuuk, and UAE have all had competent DMs, some of them were Instructors, which is very common.

I believe we share a similar opinion John.

Yes and no. My point is that, once again, the number of dives is not as important as the competence displayed by the individual, and if the individual does not have adequate competence, then the individual is not going to be holding down a job.

 

[DevonDiver]

Yes and no. My point is that, once again, the number of dives is not as important as the competence displayed by the individual, and if the individual does not have adequate competence, then the individual is not going to be holding down a job.

Which probably explains why a tiny, tiny fraction do hold down a job. Of those who even attempt to work as a DM full-time...

Competence is important - but at the entry to training (prerequisites) it isn't assessed. On exit from training, only individual skills/skill-sets are assessed, there is no competency-based assessment for employment. Even if there were, such an assessment is currently not externally validated and, thus, subject to the whim of the individual instructor.

 

[Tigerman]

Its not just about being able to keep the job, theres also the issue of LIKING the job and the generally bad paycheck it brings.
And of course theres the issue of many dive ops not employing DMs as they can only be used as DMs, so they rather hire instructors in the first place..

 

[Searcaigh]

Dubai Diver said all the dives should be in the sea, and specifically said NOT a quarry. It eliminates an entire diving scenario. There appeared to be no option is his post for the DM who wants to work in the quarry.

It's actually a fairly tough job for DMs in quarries, I would imagine certainly more stressful then in areas where is decent visibility. We had a DM per two buddy pairs (plus 2 instructors for the class) when I did OW because the vis was so bad, and the instructors DID lose us- so thank goodness for the DMs. Quarry diving is not less real than ocean diving, and IMO- "intro" quarry diving is a lot more difficult than "intro" ocean diving.

My point is that DMs who have never dived outside of a quarry or small fresh water loch (lake) should not be employed immediately as a DM in say the Florida Keys or the Red Sea without some sort of update. And before somebody comments about the North American Great Lakes I understand that these are almost seas and provide yet another specialist area.

Devon Diver has already mentioned that this update system does exist but apparently is not mandatory. And I also agree that the reverse is true, any DM who has never experienced a cold low viz situation such as in a quarry also needs to have an update course if working in these conditions.

Back on topic about the number of dives etc., having given this some thought over the past few days whilst not having much to do except chat with friends and something else that was mentioned in this thread was the number of hours required to solo on a specific aircraft after training etc.

All very well well having 60 dives but some dives may only last 20 minutes! Perhaps there should be a minimum number of hours too!

 

[DevonDiver]

My point is that DMs who have never dived outside of a quarry or small fresh water loch (lake) should not be employed immediately as a DM in say the Florida Keys or the Red Sea without some sort of update.

Devon Diver has already mentioned that this update system does exist but apparently is not mandatory. And I also agree that the reverse is true, any DM who has never experienced a cold low viz situation such as in a quarry also needs to have an update course if working in these conditions.

It's kinda mandatory when you think about it. It's defined in 'Safe Diving Practices'... Divemasters are obligated to follow Safe Diving Practices as part of their membership.

With regards to region/conditions in this debate, the concept of environmental familiarity could easily be covered in those DM membership standards. A specific familiarization program or local experience requirement could even be detailed...."before conducting DM duties in a new environment..." That'd remove the need for regional or multi-sectional qualifications...

Membership standards could easily be tightened to impose restrictions on the type of diving, use of equipment etc for divemasters.

Hours are a far better measurement than dives. 'Unsupervised hours' makes more sense for a prospective dive leader. Diving conducted under the support/supervision/guidance/tutelage of a professional diver shouldn't count towards the experience requirement. Basically, guided (potentially herd) dives and training dives wouldn't count towards experience... the prospective DM would have to go out and independently manage their own dives for a little while before applying to join a course.

Something like "60 hours of unsupervised diving" would be a lot more credible than just '60 dives'.

Add to that some diving experience specifics... should there be a requirement for:

XX deep dives?
XX nitrox dives?
XX multi-level dives?
XX computer dives?
etc etc etc

​

This would also help ensure that the DM candidate had a breadth of experience - utilizing the training/skills that would part-and-parcel of their future diving duties as a DM...

What we're basically talking about is what foundations should a diver have before progressing from diver to dive leader.

I still think it's a joke that you can enroll on DM with 60 dives, but need 100 dives for Self-Reliant (Solo) Diver. One of the stated goals of the self-reliant course is to help preserve safety for diving professionals.... odd that some of those supervisory-level professionals aren't even deemed competent to do that training... LOL

 

[maniago]

Too bad this turned in to a thread on "lets rail on DM qualifications". Again.

Ok, just stop. The DM quals have reached an industry equilibrium whether you like it or not. And that's the equation of "cost to get qualed/pay insurance/agency dues etc"="pay in thank you's". Sure some boat DMs get some tips; but pool, quarry, river training DMs get zip. Noone takes much $hit for zip in return. And without volunteer DMs the cost of training would be a lot higher.

And for that matter, no LDS hires a DM just cause he has a DM card. They hire him/her based on their seasoning with whatever conditions the LDS teaches/dives. Like any business.

60 dives is good enough for an LDS to know that you have the minimum of capability to probably not kill yourself while they train you up in their operations WITH an instructor at your side.

Its good enough, emphasis on enough.

 

[RJP]

Too bad this turned in to a thread on "lets rail on DM qualifications". Again.

"Turned into?"... that was where the thread STARTED.