So why is my LDS so excited about sidemount all of a sudden?

[616fun]

We're a liveaboard. One tank is all you get. Over and over and over again.

Aha. Now it's making sense

 

[skankpile]

I think if you are proficient the boat will let you do whatever you want. I've not heard of anybody not doing whatever they wanted on Franks boat without due cause.

If you think open water sidemount from a boat will be fun using a continuous bungee system.. then you are that guy that does not get to do whatever you want.

 

[halocline]

I think if you are proficient the boat will let you do whatever you want. I've not heard of anybody not doing whatever they wanted on Franks boat without due cause.
.

You can't bring doubles on his recreational charters no matter how proficient you are. It's a matter of boat management, has nothing to do with the diver. I would have enjoyed using double 72s at the Flower Gardens, at least in theory. Climbing up the ladder even with lightweight doubles 5 times/day in any sort of seas would get old pretty fast, I imagine. So maybe the single tank rule isn't so bad after all.

 

[Sol]

Thanks, all, for your detailed, informative, and even occasionally witty responses. I feel much better informed about the relative merits of sidemount gear as opposed to conventional backmount now. I've even seen answers to questions I hadn't thought to ask.

I guess what I'm left wondering, at the end of the day, is why my particular LDS seems to be pushing SM at this stage. As I said, I'm just a newbie: I've got fewer than 50 dives under my belt, and I'm only gearing up for the first time. I've been working with a conventional jacket-style BCD and a lovely BP/W that I borrowed from a gearhead friend, so at this point I'm still looking to acquire my first BCD. I'm about to complete my Rescue certification, and from what I understand, dive ops prefer you to be wearing the same gear the students are using, so if there's an interpretation that differs from the cynical suggestions that "they just want to sell you more stuff," I'd like to know what that is.

Perhaps I'm just misreading my instructor. It's been known to happen ... :eyes:

 

[scubafanatic]

Thanks, all, for your detailed, informative, and even occasionally witty responses. I feel much better informed about the relative merits of sidemount gear as opposed to conventional backmount now. I've even seen answers to questions I hadn't thought to ask.

I guess what I'm left wondering, at the end of the day, is why my particular LDS seems to be pushing SM at this stage. As I said, I'm just a newbie: I've got fewer than 50 dives under my belt, and I'm only gearing up for the first time. I've been working with a conventional jacket-style BCD and a lovely BP/W that I borrowed from a gearhead friend, so at this point I'm still looking to acquire my first BCD. I'm about to complete my Rescue certification, and from what I understand, dive ops prefer you to be wearing the same gear the students are using, so if there's an interpretation that differs from the cynical suggestions that "they just want to sell you more stuff," I'd like to know what that is.

Perhaps I'm just misreading my instructor. It's been known to happen ... :eyes:

As a novice diver, you're more vulnerable to sales pitches/being influenced. I remember being told how I'd make a great DM (divemaster), feeling flattered at first, later realizing they probably told all their new divers that to drum up gear sales and recruit 'slave labor' to assist with staffing classes and other basic grunt work at the shop. Early in my dive experience, I hooked up with a tech shop that also specialized in flattery and hard sales pitches to load me up with gear/classes, and while I'm 100 % sure that the dive shop owner/instructor was top shelf in knowledge/experence, I was slow to realize the desperate financial trouble his shop was in and that his ethics were compromised by the financial stress he was under, so I loaded up on a lot of over priced gear and 'tech' classes. Actually I gained a lot of good 'tech' exposure/experience from him, so I don't regret that element, but with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight (12 yrs diving experience under my belt now) I can look back and realize I was probably being 'played' to some extent as a source of revenue in hard economic times. BTW, both the shop that flattered me calling me a born-DM, and the 'tech' shop went out of business years ago (before even the market crash/economic crisis of 2008) so if times were challenging during the early-2000s boom years, I can only imaging the financial pressures facing dive shops post-2008 crash!

The scuba gear industry is mostly bankrupt of new/innovative ideas (witness how DEMA has become a scuba vacation/location dive show with new gear ideas a very distant 2nd place priority) so the SM concept for your average LDS is just a desperate bid to initiate a military(SEALs)-cool look gear-buying 'fad' in the clueless recreational diver population. As others have pointed out, there actually are a few very specialized diving styles/locations where SM is 'legitimate' and not BS, but outside this VERY narrow subset of diving, SM is a silly waste of money!

 

[scubadada]

Sorry, a question out of ignorance, I've never been on a boat with SM divers. Do most divers enter and exit the water with both cylinders attached or are they attached and unattached in the water? In very heavy seas I'm not sure I would want to deal with the cylinders in the water and seems like one would want at least one cylinder available in case one was thrown back into the water from the ladder. Likewise, when a rapid descent is needed, seems like one would really like to enter the water with cylinders already attached and ready to go. Maybe I'm wrong, but manueveing around the boat with 2 side mounted cylinders would seem to be more difficult than a single back mounted cylinder, perhaps more like regular doubles, certainly, the weight is about the same.

Thanks, Craig

For good reason, thread went off in a different direction, I would still love the hear the answers to my questions.

 

[616fun]

Thanks, all, for your detailed, informative, and even occasionally witty responses. I feel much better informed about the relative merits of sidemount gear as opposed to conventional backmount now. I've even seen answers to questions I hadn't thought to ask.

I guess what I'm left wondering, at the end of the day, is why my particular LDS seems to be pushing SM at this stage. As I said, I'm just a newbie: I've got fewer than 50 dives under my belt, and I'm only gearing up for the first time. I've been working with a conventional jacket-style BCD and a lovely BP/W that I borrowed from a gearhead friend, so at this point I'm still looking to acquire my first BCD. I'm about to complete my Rescue certification, and from what I understand, dive ops prefer you to be wearing the same gear the students are using, so if there's an interpretation that differs from the cynical suggestions that "they just want to sell you more stuff," I'd like to know what that is.

Perhaps I'm just misreading my instructor. It's been known to happen ... :eyes:

$$$$

Let me count the ways:

New buoyancy system
New reg
Possibly new tanks
Various bolt snaps, knick knacks, stuff they can sell

It's not that much more difficult.

 

[DevonDiver]

Yes,but........... with sidemount you have to make twice as many trips to the water. Often it's easier to make one trip with doubles on your back rather than two carrying a heavy steel tank in your arms.

That's a very individual benefit, depending on the physical abilities/impairments of the specific diver. My knees and back are in poor shape... I also have limited strength/grip in one hand. For me, walking is easy...carry weight is harder. I can walk up and down the beach all day, no problem. Carrying multiple tanks on one trip is likely to see me visiting a chiropractor though..

Putting the tanks in the water first is great when diving a calm lake with with convenient shallows to gear up in. It's not so much fun in six foot waves!

There are solutions... and those solutions should become evident with proper training. For instance, with boat diving in rough conditions, a solution might be to enter wearing only the left tank (using choker clip for security). Subsequent tanks (right primary and any deco/stage tanks) can be pre-deployed below the surface on a hanging line. The diver enters the water, submerges on the line and collects/dons those cylinders in relative comfort. Likewise, those cylinders can be removed and stored at shallow depth, upon the same line, on ascent. This provides an easy solution to entry/exit for the diver, regardless of surface conditions.

4. I may be all wrong, but the weight is the weight. I don't see trekkers carrying their kit on their hips with shoulder rigs, I see them with back packs on. I'm 50, and I just can't see how (on land) low and out to the sides is any easier than high and on the back.

I believe you are mis-interpreting the intention of that comment. The 'ease of travelling' is typically associated with two factors - (1) The availability of manifold/isolated doubles for rental... and (2) the drawbacks of overseas travel when carrying the equipment necessary to set-up and dive back-mounted doubles.

Sidemount configuration permits divers to travel anywhere and use any dive operation's rental tanks...and yet still conduct double-tank dives. A sidemount BCD weighs 2-3lbs and can be fitted into a reg-bag.... the same could not be said for a BP&W.... or, worse, bands/valves etc needed to set-up your own doubles at the end location.

For this reason, sidemount configuration is proving exceptionally popular with cavers/tech divers here in the Philippines. Logistics and travel to more remote/less supported areas being primary concerns here.

How divers get to caves in the Philippines:


How divers get to caves in the USA:

We're a liveaboard. One tank is all you get. Over and over and over again.

If a dive charter/liveaboard does not have the logistics to support double-tank diving, then the side/back mount issue seems irrelevant anyway. However, sidemount could be arranged (if charter motivation existed) a lot easier than backmount - as no specialist equipment/cylinders needs to be supplied for the sidemount diver. I've (very) rarely encountered boats that need to re-fill tanks between each recreational dive... most have the capacity to support 2-3 dives per customer without turning on the compressor.

I guess what I'm left wondering, at the end of the day, is why my particular LDS seems to be pushing SM at this stage.

1) It's a new approach. As such, the majority of the diving public have little awareness of it. Awareness is created through education. The deficit of awareness is countered by an increase in information. There are also many incorrect assumptions about the nature and use of sidemount - the rectification of which tends to increase the volume of sidemount education/promotion encountered.

2) The LDS might have a positive belief that the nature of diving they undertake makes the use of redundant/increased gas supplies beneficial from a diver safety perspective. In doing so, they might believe that sidemount offers divers a convenient, cost-effective and flexible opportunity to access double-tank diving without the need for substantial investment (time and money) in the training and equipment necessary to use back-mounted doubles.

3) The LDS might want to provide technical/advanced training options without the long-term cost issues associated with the use of back-mount doubles. i.e. they won't have to purchase, or will no longer have to service/maintain, multiple sets of isolated double tanks.

4) I don't see anything 'different' with sidemount that I didn't see with back-mount, or even BP&W, when they became "new" concepts or options amongst the general rec-diving population. People asked (or complained) why BP&W was so heavily promoted by those that used it... etc etc etc. Any new option will create a "buzz" in the community. Some will have a legitimate value for it. Some will see it as a prestige issue. ...and some will oppose it through inertia.

Do most divers enter and exit the water with both cylinders attached or are they attached and unattached in the water?

Sidemount courses teach both options, along with variation. The diver can enter the water with both cylinders. They can enter with one cylinder and don the second in the water. They can enter with neither cylinder attached and don both in the water. They can also don/doff the second cylinder at the surface, or whilst submerged.

They would choose the most appropriate solution, based on what the specific dive conditions demanded.

One of the stated advantages of sidemount is flexibility. You can opt for the approach that most suits your needs. With back-mount, you have one option that has to suit every demand.

$$$$ Let me count the ways: New ...New...Possibly new... stuff they can sell

Just for the record... I put together a very effective sidemount rig using existing components from back mounted diving. It cost less than $150. Purchases were a BP&W adapter, some bungee cord and a few bolt-snaps...I had everything else. Any LDS will be losing more than that from me, per month, because I now don't have to rent/maintain/service/set-up isolated manifold doubles.

It makes a difference what background/previous diving activity the new sidemount diver comes from. Converting from backmount-doubles to sidemount doubles requires some additional expense. However, if the diver is transitioning from single-tank to double-tank for the first time, then sidemount should be a considerably more cost-effective option... given that an investment will have to be made in either circumstance.

If the question is whether "recreational divers need to use double-tanks at all"... well, that is something uniquely specific to each diver...the dives they wish to conduct...and their personal philosophy on the value of gas redundancy and volume supply.

Few divers would argue that you can have too much air. In an emergency; Air is time - Time is life. In addition, air consumption issues tend to be the biggest woes amongst novice divers. It takes time to improve consumption rates...and for that time, dive duration is restricted and divers get frustrated. Double tanks solve those problems. However, traditionally the supply of air had to be balanced against several factors; the financial investment needed to equip with/for back-mounted doubles, the time commitment needed to learn the skills and drills for safe back-mounted doubles diving and the rise in exertion/effort needed to conduct dives with back-mounted doubles (compared to single tank diving). When considering those factors, most divers perceived that the disadvantages associated with a switch to doubles outweighed the advantages.

Sidemount potentially re-aligns the balance of those advantages and disadvantages.... and an increasing proportion of divers now perceive that the benefits double tank diving might outweigh the disadvantages.... double-tank diving has become more 'accessible'.

 

[Johanan]

Just for the record... I put together a very effective sidemount rig using existing components from back mounted diving. It cost less than $150. Purchases were a BP&W adapter, some bungee cord and a few bolt-snaps...I had everything else.

Awesome! Could you tell some more about it?

 

[DevonDiver]

Awesome! Could you tell some more about it?

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/si...ject-frankenstein-my-diy-sidemount-trial.html

The thread is out of date, because the rig now has a soft backplate (Oxycheq Travelite) and low-profile d-rings on a softer webbing. I've also thrown some bungee cord around to help shape and structure the wing itself for refined sidemount performance..

Just put a bunch of new pics on the original thread, to show the developments I've made over the last year.