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How to do the frog kick?
- Thread starter amsalem
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My cave instructor taught me that you use the gluteus maximus muscles. If they are sore at the end of the day you are doing it right, not the knees or ankles. She also got behind me and moved my feet together in the clapping fashion that propels you without stirring the bottom.
Sleepdr
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If the pain persisted, we would have scheduled an MRI. His suspicion was that I had some synovitis that mimicked a meniscal injury, along with some inflammation of the patellar tendon. The time course fit, and it resolved with those conservative measures.
I'm sure there's some arthritis in most of my load-bearing joints. The other knee probably has a little meniscus tear, but it wasn't a problem with kicking. Eventually I'll need to get both knees cleaned up, and possibly some work on the hips or back. For now, I continue to be one of those stereotypical doctors who are horrible patients, waiting to see their doc until it's unavoidable. My ENT has me filed under "N for Nonocompliant," as I haven't done any follow-up appointments after a long-ago partial thyroidectomy. :bonk:
FWIW, I'm doing a GUE Primer next week to learn the frog kick.
I'm sure there's some arthritis in most of my load-bearing joints. The other knee probably has a little meniscus tear, but it wasn't a problem with kicking. Eventually I'll need to get both knees cleaned up, and possibly some work on the hips or back. For now, I continue to be one of those stereotypical doctors who are horrible patients, waiting to see their doc until it's unavoidable. My ENT has me filed under "N for Nonocompliant," as I haven't done any follow-up appointments after a long-ago partial thyroidectomy. :bonk:
FWIW, I'm doing a GUE Primer next week to learn the frog kick.
I agree Dopp... the frog kick uses all of those muscle groups and even more. But, for a beginner, that's where they are going to feel the "burn" from a long day in the water. After all, most divers have well developed calf and thigh muscles from flutter kicking. They just aren't used to putting their butt into the dive as well as their legs. 
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Another reason why cycling is such a good cross training activity for divers.....when you use clip on pedals, the idea is to be pushing forward with the top foot, and with the bottom foot it is like you are scraping the sh*t off your shoe on the floor.....This pull on the bottom pedal works the hamstring nicely, providing good conditioning for diving.
Also, I adjusted my seat and pedaling style years ago, so that I was high enough that it was comfortable to use complete extension of the ankle---toe all the way pointed down as the foot nears the bottom of the stroke, and then the quadricep is used to drive the pedal forward....this utilizes the the majority of the fin swimming muscles that are not used much on land--and does so much better than running or swimming.
Also, I adjusted my seat and pedaling style years ago, so that I was high enough that it was comfortable to use complete extension of the ankle---toe all the way pointed down as the foot nears the bottom of the stroke, and then the quadricep is used to drive the pedal forward....this utilizes the the majority of the fin swimming muscles that are not used much on land--and does so much better than running or swimming.
Frog is a funny kick, try to be flat from once, nipples to knees and keep your fins flat. Then load... Spread your legs and bring your feet together like your clapping you fins. Lynne said it 
then glide...
I personally use it some, but switch to true flutter for power, when I need to keep up with my buddy whom does frog perfectly, and strong...
If you can watch a GUE demo of the kicks on YouTube. It'll show you what it looks like.
then glide...I personally use it some, but switch to true flutter for power, when I need to keep up with my buddy whom does frog perfectly, and strong...
If you can watch a GUE demo of the kicks on YouTube. It'll show you what it looks like.
Sleepdr
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The breast stroke kick uses lots of knee extension and gets power from that whipping extension, vs the power in the frog kick being from adducting/clapping the feet together. Yes, many of you said that, but there was a short circuit between my brain and body mechanics. I was doing it totally backwards, trying to get power during what should have been the loading phase and resting during what should have been the power phase. Not only that, but I was wrongly trying to generate circular force from the knees instead of a more efficient power from the hips. Combine that with totally wrong foot and ankle position, and there's the recipe for knee injury.
I'm athletically declined, and still try too hard to muscle through skills instead of finesse. Just got home from almost 24 total hours' of GUE Primer with Garth McMurdie in UT, and finally understand the mechanics of the frog kick as it relates to my body. That feeling of water being squeezed between the fins when they are clapped together was a real "a-ha" moment. I still have a long way to go with that and the other skills, but something amazing happened.
After countless pool laps with a very patient instructor, I have zero pain in the knees. None. My back muscles, deltoids, and glutes are smoked from trying to learn a stable platform, but that's all a "good hurt." Even with several steel 72s sucked down over the pool hours, my knees are completely unbothered.
[thread detour]
Now, if I could just stop pointing my fin tips away from horizontal in a hover, it would keep me from rolling & corkscrewing out of plane. It was almost comical seeing myself on video - I got to the point of being able to predict how long it would take me to destabilize when a foot drifted. My mantra while watching the videos was: "There goes the fin tip. There goes the other leg to try to counterbalance, unhooking that fin. And roll starts...now!" There was slow but definite progress. My helicopter turns and back kicking still are way inefficient, and somehow were better when concentrating on other things like the Basic 5 or holding a 5' stop during a practice ascent. That fits with the whole "over-think and try to muscle it" issue.
I'm going to grab some JetFins, too, after being more stable with them. It was a surprising difference both in feel and appearance on video. At my very newbie level, their flatter shape helped with learning foot position. The gentle curve built into my Hollis F1s probably wouldn't bother anyone with better innate proprioception, but it was harder for me to learn how to hold a curved fin in a neutral position.
I'm athletically declined, and still try too hard to muscle through skills instead of finesse. Just got home from almost 24 total hours' of GUE Primer with Garth McMurdie in UT, and finally understand the mechanics of the frog kick as it relates to my body. That feeling of water being squeezed between the fins when they are clapped together was a real "a-ha" moment. I still have a long way to go with that and the other skills, but something amazing happened.
After countless pool laps with a very patient instructor, I have zero pain in the knees. None. My back muscles, deltoids, and glutes are smoked from trying to learn a stable platform, but that's all a "good hurt." Even with several steel 72s sucked down over the pool hours, my knees are completely unbothered.
[thread detour]
Now, if I could just stop pointing my fin tips away from horizontal in a hover, it would keep me from rolling & corkscrewing out of plane. It was almost comical seeing myself on video - I got to the point of being able to predict how long it would take me to destabilize when a foot drifted. My mantra while watching the videos was: "There goes the fin tip. There goes the other leg to try to counterbalance, unhooking that fin. And roll starts...now!" There was slow but definite progress. My helicopter turns and back kicking still are way inefficient, and somehow were better when concentrating on other things like the Basic 5 or holding a 5' stop during a practice ascent. That fits with the whole "over-think and try to muscle it" issue.
I'm going to grab some JetFins, too, after being more stable with them. It was a surprising difference both in feel and appearance on video. At my very newbie level, their flatter shape helped with learning foot position. The gentle curve built into my Hollis F1s probably wouldn't bother anyone with better innate proprioception, but it was harder for me to learn how to hold a curved fin in a neutral position.
SeahorseDeb
Contributor
Where I live, we dive freshwater. The silt can be a minimum of 3 feet deep....one fin to close too the bottom and ....silt out!!! It's easy to find divers, just follow the silt trail or rise above it and look for bubbles, although I prefer myself not to leave one. I am still learning, but I won't give up. We had a class last spring on technique, however I missed it. Glad to see this thread. Thx!!
---------- Post Merged at 10:53 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:35 PM ----------
NetDoc & SleepDr.......
You both brought up a good point, however I want to tag your comments further: I'm still post-op from my 2nd shoulder surgery which was the result of 33 years of repetitive motion. I feel that practicing both finning strokes is better long term on the body than one type, especially if said diver is a long time diver. Also, it prepares the diver for a variety of conditions. And perhaps this will prevent a repetitive injury motion that may not rear it's head for 1-2-3 decades!! I'm learning how to dive now under modified conditions. I cannot walk far with my 100hp steel and 20lbs of lead, most often now, my buddies have to throw my kit into the water and then I don it. What a pain, so yes, your post did outline physical problems that can occur, prevention begins now.
---------- Post Merged at 10:53 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:35 PM ----------
NetDoc & SleepDr.......
You both brought up a good point, however I want to tag your comments further: I'm still post-op from my 2nd shoulder surgery which was the result of 33 years of repetitive motion. I feel that practicing both finning strokes is better long term on the body than one type, especially if said diver is a long time diver. Also, it prepares the diver for a variety of conditions. And perhaps this will prevent a repetitive injury motion that may not rear it's head for 1-2-3 decades!! I'm learning how to dive now under modified conditions. I cannot walk far with my 100hp steel and 20lbs of lead, most often now, my buddies have to throw my kit into the water and then I don it. What a pain, so yes, your post did outline physical problems that can occur, prevention begins now.
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