Mentors?

[AfterDark]

I joined a dive club in my area when I was 16, didn't know it when I joined but a lot of those guys were ex-commerical and military divers as well as guys that had been diving for sometime. I was the only 16 year up to then to be allowed to join. Those guys taught me hard lessons that 40 years later I still remember. Those guys are mostly gone now. They had me planning every dive their's too!
You didn't want to fup their plan because they checked it. Many personal questions were asked after a fup, like if ones head was stuck up in a dark warm place or are you trying to kill me / us? Did your mother have any kids that weren't born brain dead? What's wrong? Do it again and figure it out! Tough men but good teachers and better divers. They taught me about deep air diving and decompression, wreck diving, penertrations, navigation. Today it would cost hundreds if not thousands to learn these things. It's a debt I can't repay and was never asked to either.

Having a good mentor(s) is an experience that every serious diver should have, just being around solid divers and listening can be a learning experience.

 

[Diver0001]

Good question, what prompted it. I was just thinking about some recent threads. One concerning OW divers going below 60'. Certain Dive Ops supporting this if the OW diver is accompanied by a DM. But going deeper than 60 gets into an official deep dive, and DMs aren't allowed to teach that--it is beyond the certified diver's training. In fact, I believe it was an instructor who said this should not occur and these dive ops and DMs are in the wrong. I have also recently been trying to be very picky about any advice I may give on SB, as now being a DM I have more responsibilities, both morally and legally. A recent post on this thread pointed out that a new diver may experience his first night dive, or go below 60' for the first time while diving with a mentor---Now if a dive pro suggested that on SB (or anywhere), would that not be in some way an agency violation? I really didn't start the thread for a discussion on the benefits of mentoring--I think we all know it's value. Just curious about this possible "grey" area with pros advising this. If a DM should not be taking an OW diver on a charter below 60', should any dive pro be advising someone to seek an experienced diver (who may not even be a pro) as a mentor to do the very same thing? Obviously advice such as improving one's weighting/trim, finning, gas consumption, buddying techniques, etc. are not areas I'm talking about. Then again, a mentor COULD possibly introduce someone to cave or tech. diving. And a dive pro told the OW diver to find a mentor.

I see.

There are two issues at hand here. First is what the agency will do if you go diving with someone and push past the boundaries of their training outside the context of an official agency programme. The answer is "nothing". You haven't done anything to violate their rules because their rules weren't being applied to the dive in question.

The other issue is an issue of legal liability in the even that something happens during such a a dive.

In order to be nailed to the cross for liability if an accident happens then the courts will have to do three things: (1) show that you had a responsibility to do (or not do) certain things. That's called a duty of care, (2) show that that you deliberately didn't do what you were supposed to do (an act of negligence) and (3) show that any damages, for example, someone having an accident, is a direct result of #2. The chances that even a good lawyer could show a direct causal relationship between #2 and #3 for something you said on the internet to a stranger is pretty slim, tbh, so I wouldn't worry *too* much about that. Just don't suggest idiotic things (ie. use your common sense), don't present opinions as if they were facts, etc... which, in your case, is what you do anyway. This doesn't just apply to dive pro's by the way.

That said, if you're diving with someone and you take them outside the boundaries of their training and something happens, then they have a case. One of the functions of an agency is specifically to create a legal buffer for instructors if accidents happen during training, since the nature of a training dive is to do something they haven't done before. Standards create a definition for the duty of care and following standards shows that your adhered to your duty of care in the event of a liability case.

There's a third issue that sometimes crops up when an accident happens and that's the issue of whether or not what you did constitutes such a big breach of conduct that an actual crime has been committed (manslaughter, for example). To be honest I don't know much about how that's approached in relation to diving accidents. I just know that it can happen.

So that's some context for you to get a grip on it. So your question about if suggesting breaking new ground with a mentor could get you in trouble or not? I seriously doubt it. Should you do "ground breaking" dives with your dive buddies outside the context of an agency programme? If you do, then you won't have any protection from standards if something awful happens so I would say you would be taking a risk. Does that apply more so to DMs and instructors than it does to the average diver? I would think most lawyers would argue "yes" that as a "pro" you should know better. Would you lose your status as a DM if you had such an accident? No.

Honestly, if you just use your common sense then you don't need to run around second-guessing yourself at every moment. I've been a pro for quite a while and I've only ever "avoided" one dive that I thought would get my butt in a sling if it went wrong. I'm a certified ice diver through IANTD and a PADI instructor and a few years ago some guys with no ice training invited me to join them to go ice diving. I would have been the only "pro" there and the only diver with ice training. I declined and firmly advised them to seek a qualified ice instructor to accompany them. I would have loved to have done the dive and my presence probably would have made things safer for them than my absence but I couldn't accept the liability risk. It's the only time I can remember not going diving because I was worried about being crucified if an accident happened.

R..

 

[CT-Rich]

I think one of the common sense aspects of life are being ignored here. If your kids have a playdate, you have a certain degree of liability for what happens even if it is at the other child's house. Same thing when you get into a car to drive to work or pull the wrong can of fruit out of a display stack or suggest going on the black diamond ski trail or that you explore a bmx trail.

It is not realistic to plan every dive with a lawyer in mind, the same way it is't the way we go skiing or the grocery store. We usually rely on common sense to guide our action and protect our safety. If you don't lock up your guns around a couple of ten year olds, well, you are at risk. But, if a lawsuit is your big concern, your thinking is skewed.

Ski slopes can't stop you from going down the Black Diamond trail. they can warn you about its difficulty, but it is your common sense that needs make the choice. their is no cure for stupid, and if you have a dive buddy that wants to dive stupid, you had better find a better buddy. if you can't figure out what excedes your skills, with or without having paid your PADI toll to travel that road, you might want to dive conservative or take up another sport.

Certification has little to do with competency. It shows others what you have been exposed to in the way of training, but not skill. It also shows you, hopefully, the limitation of your knowledge. i.e. what the reasonable expectation is for a particular dive. It does not cure stupid.

 

[NCadiver]

A mentor can help an OW diver up to an Instructor become better divers by showing them tip and tricks appropriate for there level of diving.

 

[Searcaigh]

When I moved from using Nikonos cameras to housed SLRs, I had several mentors who taught me how to manage this larger camera system underwater, and above water for that matter too. I frequently thank them a lot in my head for all their guidance during my dives.

They were also the guys (and gals) who introduced me to solo diving and who gave me the confidence to undertake this type of diving with the correct preparation. Several of these people were instructors but no longer taught any classes as their prime reason for diving was photography.

 

[Them]

I think the mentor idea is a fantasy most of the time. The idea of being taken under wing and shown the ropes and five other cliches is very appealing to someone just starting out in any activity. However, in order for anything to happen when it comes to human interaction, both parties need to get something out of the interaction. It's easy to see what the new guy gets out of the deal, not so clear what the mentor gets.

Most sports tend to self organize around experience levels and types. An experienced tennis player isn't going to have fun playing with a new tennis player. Likewise, a new tennis player isn't going to have much fun being trounced by an experienced player. Diving can be a lot like that. I'm sure there are 20-year multi-thousand-dive divers who still get off on tooling around familiar waters at 40 feet or less, but mostly people push limits and seek challenges. That means the possible mentor candidates you encounter are usually going to be not much more experienced than you...unless you are really pushing. If you are really pushing (as in going beyond your experience and prudent limits) you may guilt someone into mentoring you because they think you'll kill yourself if they don't, but you are just as likely to be aggressively pushed away as an unwelcome and unsafe addition to the more experienced clique.

Most mentor relationships exist within a larger relationship. Big Sister mentoring her little brother, Dad mentoring his daughter, senior employee mentoring junior employee, et cetera. In practical terms, that means if you want a mentor you need to make some other connection too. You need to be friends with the person, or family, or something meaningful. Club membership may count if the club is a real social unit for the members - some are, many aren't. If that relationship doesn't exist, you have no coin to pay your prospective mentor.

If you take away the people who start as kids, the people whose family or close friends already dive, and similar, the closest most people will ever come to having dive mentors is when they participate in a forum like this.

 

[TSandM]

It's easy to see what the new guy gets out of the deal, not so clear what the mentor gets.

As someone who truly enjoys mentoring, I'll tell you what the mentor gets. The mentor gets the big smile on somebody's face when they are able to do something better than they could do it before. The mentor gets an enormous feeling of being USEFUL, and sometimes the warm fuzzies of paying their own mentoring forward. The mentor gets a dive buddy who is steadily more fun to share a dive with. And the mentor gets the challenge, sometimes, of figuring out how to communicate ideas or which tips will be most beneficial for the novice. There are a LOT of rewards for mentoring upcoming divers, and I know an awful lot of people who enjoy doing it.

 

[AfterDark]

I think the mentor idea is a fantasy most of the time. The idea of being taken under wing and shown the ropes and five other cliches is very appealing to someone just starting out in any activity. However, in order for anything to happen when it comes to human interaction, both parties need to get something out of the interaction. It's easy to see what the new guy gets out of the deal, not so clear what the mentor gets.

Most sports tend to self organize around experience levels and types. An experienced tennis player isn't going to have fun playing with a new tennis player. Likewise, a new tennis player isn't going to have much fun being trounced by an experienced player. Diving can be a lot like that. I'm sure there are 20-year multi-thousand-dive divers who still get off on tooling around familiar waters at 40 feet or less, but mostly people push limits and seek challenges. That means the possible mentor candidates you encounter are usually going to be not much more experienced than you...unless you are really pushing. If you are really pushing (as in going beyond your experience and prudent limits) you may guilt someone into mentoring you because they think you'll kill yourself if they don't, but you are just as likely to be aggressively pushed away as an unwelcome and unsafe addition to the more experienced clique.

Most mentor relationships exist within a larger relationship. Big Sister mentoring her little brother, Dad mentoring his daughter, senior employee mentoring junior employee, et cetera. In practical terms, that means if you want a mentor you need to make some other connection too. You need to be friends with the person, or family, or something meaningful. Club membership may count if the club is a real social unit for the members - some are, many aren't. If that relationship doesn't exist, you have no coin to pay your prospective mentor.

If you take away the people who start as kids, the people whose family or close friends already dive, and similar, the closest most people will ever come to having dive mentors is when they participate in a forum like this.

In my case if I were to mentor my take away is the knowledage that I helped to form a safe and skilled diver(s). I've enjoyed diving so much for so long it is the least I can do. Of course I can't do alone what a half dozen men twice my age or more at the time could do. They had head games and "training" aids that took mulitple players. I do agree my experience was unique and probably couldn't happen today with threat of lawsuits. But a new diver could learn a lot thru asmoses just diving with an experienced diver. Questions asked and answered without any semi-formal training can make connections and enlighten a new diver as to just how much they don't know.

There was a time when I would dive only with people as experienced or more than I. It was a snobbish thing really. I used to say "it was a safety measure" but I just wanted to dive as much and hassle free as I could. Those days ended long ago. I will dive with anyone these days, sight unseen. I don't care, up to the danger zone anyway, how bad someone is in the water. If they want to get better I'll help them. I'm not looking to take away these days but give back. I'd like to help inspire a kid to a lifetime of diving.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I think the mentor idea is a fantasy most of the time. The idea of being taken under wing and shown the ropes and five other cliches is very appealing to someone just starting out in any activity. However, in order for anything to happen when it comes to human interaction, both parties need to get something out of the interaction. It's easy to see what the new guy gets out of the deal, not so clear what the mentor gets.

Most sports tend to self organize around experience levels and types. An experienced tennis player isn't going to have fun playing with a new tennis player. Likewise, a new tennis player isn't going to have much fun being trounced by an experienced player. Diving can be a lot like that. I'm sure there are 20-year multi-thousand-dive divers who still get off on tooling around familiar waters at 40 feet or less, but mostly people push limits and seek challenges. That means the possible mentor candidates you encounter are usually going to be not much more experienced than you...unless you are really pushing. If you are really pushing (as in going beyond your experience and prudent limits) you may guilt someone into mentoring you because they think you'll kill yourself if they don't, but you are just as likely to be aggressively pushed away as an unwelcome and unsafe addition to the more experienced clique.

Most mentor relationships exist within a larger relationship. Big Sister mentoring her little brother, Dad mentoring his daughter, senior employee mentoring junior employee, et cetera. In practical terms, that means if you want a mentor you need to make some other connection too. You need to be friends with the person, or family, or something meaningful. Club membership may count if the club is a real social unit for the members - some are, many aren't. If that relationship doesn't exist, you have no coin to pay your prospective mentor.

If you take away the people who start as kids, the people whose family or close friends already dive, and similar, the closest most people will ever come to having dive mentors is when they participate in a forum like this.

As my all-time favorite mentor (Uncle Pug) used to tell me ... you really need to rethink your approach to that dive ...

As an instructor and a frequent mentor, I can assure you that they (we) are a reality ... you simply have either never met one yet, or lack the mindset to benefit from what they can teach you.

To help comprehend the role of a mentor, let me propose that there are three major aspects to becoming a skilled scuba diver ... learning the skills, learning when and how to apply the skills, and learning how to combine the application of skills effectively. The first you learn by taking classes. The second you learn by diving. And the third you learn either through trial and error or by having someone point out to you what you can do to make the application of the skills easier and more effective. That last one is what is meant by "mentor" ... and there is nothing in any agency's program that either addresses this or preventing an instructor from assuming that role.

As to what a mentor gets from the relationship ... well, in my case, I'm fond of telling those I mentor that I'm not just teaching people how to dive ... I'm grooming dive buddies. And many of those I teach end up becoming people I dive with regularly (for a time) after they're done taking classes from me. The learning process continues ... and after a time, it flows in both directions. Don't ever assume that a less experienced diver can't teach a more experienced diver something ... often lessons come from perspective, and different minds and mindsets provide different perspectives on just about everything. Much of what I know about scuba diving came from people who I was either instructing or mentoring at the time.

Diving is a continuous learning process. Mentoring isn't a simple transfer of knowledge or skills from one person to another. It can be a symbiotic relationship where both parties can, and do, derive some benefit. Sometimes the benefits aren't measured in skill improvement at all ... but in terms of how you choose to think about your approach to the dive. Sometimes, that's the best gift a mentor can provide ... and sometimes, surprisingly, the role of mentor can shift from one diver to the other without you even realising it until after the fact.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Them]

As someone who truly enjoys mentoring, I'll tell you what the mentor gets. ...

In my case if I were to mentor my take away is the knowledage that I helped to form a safe and skilled diver(s). I've enjoyed diving so much for so long it is the least I can do....

Those are great and do both of you credit. People are lucky to have you around.

The social rewards are a big incentive. They are also double edged swords. They keep people like you coming back to help new divers who really need it. The flip side... when I had my sailboat in Long Beach harbor I had a neighbor who was always offering advice. He knew how to do everything! You couldn't start a project without him coming over and clucking his tongue and telling you how it should be done... but his advice was awful. I (privately) referred to him as "The Expert" and I wasn't being kind. It would be like me telling you that you really should dump your canister light and go to a D-cell mag light because they were the first really high quality flashlights ever made and bla bla blabla bla. A willingness to be a mentor is not a qualification.

I probably expressed myself poorly anyway. I'm not saying nobody is willing to mentor, or that they shouldn't, or even that there aren't rewards...but my observation is that mentoring - as people seem to envision and discuss it - usually doesn't exist except within a larger social unit. If you go seeking a mentor you will probably be rebuffed. If you join clubs, meet people, build social capital beyond "needing help", you may find you have mentors without really realizing it. If you don't do those things I think mentors, as described on forums like this, are basically a fantasy.

As my all-time favorite mentor (Uncle Pug) used to tell me ... you really need to rethink your approach to that dive ...

Probably so, but I'm not sure we would agree about why.

I agree with what you are saying. I just think the mentor relationship that is usually discussed in forums (not just this forum) is a fantasy based on mapping personal experience within a social group to others who do not have similar social groups. In other words... I personally was mentored in computers, software engineering, and EE from a very early age. My father was an EE turned software engineer and so were many of his friends. He worked for a small company and I would go there after school and nobody minded me wandering around doing stuff. So when I was 10 years old I had about 20 guys ranging from 20 to 40 who were all really happy to help the kid who was writing programs and wire-wrapping circuit boards and so on - stuff they didn't learn until college - and their mentoring is something I still benefit from....but that never would have happened without the family connections, and the friendships, and frankly without me being a kid. It wouldn't be realistic for me to suggest to that someone else, an adult who doesn't have family and friends in the trade, do the same thing. If I set that expectation it would just be a fantasy.

If you are a paid instructor and then transition into an unpaid mentor role, that's very cool of you.