Nitrox Not Helping With Narcosis... It's not making sense.

[CaveMD]

This is silly, oxygen is absolutely narcotic.

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[ktomlinson]

Does this guy do more than laugh, or does he deny the relationship between lipid solubility and the narcotic effect of gases?

 

[boulderjohn]

I still think this guy ought to come forward and explain how he knows that 100% of the diving agencies are wrong and why 100% of the research studies that have been conducted so far are wrong. He could be famous beyond measure. Copernicus showed that the geocentric concept of the universe was dead wrong, and we still revere him lo these many centuries later. Scientists who explode long held beliefs are held in great esteem. I think he needs to come forward and accept the laurels.

 

[Dive-aholic]

N2 and O2 are compounds as well, how is that relevant?

Actually, per several sources I've found a compound is a joining of different elements. O2, or oxygen, is considered an element, even in its paired form.

 

[PfcAJ]

humans love to categorize things

 

[nimoh]

Actually, per several sources I've found a compound is a joining of different elements. O2, or oxygen, is considered an element, even in its paired form.

Sorry, I stand corrected, chemistry is not my forte

 

[debajo agua]

Well, here is the lowdown, and will try to keep it factual

The individual
- The individual not a doctor
- he laughed when I mentioned that current thinking in the SCUBA industry is that oxygen is narcotic at any pressure
- it is his opinion that anyone that thinks oxygen is narcotic is confusing oxygen toxicity with gas narcosis

The company
- a commercial hyperbaric therapy operation, and is not associated with a hospital, nor is there any indication of them doing hyperbaric research.
- appears to be a family run company, since of the 5 employees listed, 4 have the same last name

I did ask for publications to support this, but he didn't have any easily available, but referred me to Rubicon. When I mentioned that I have seen two publications on Rubicon that appear to support oxygen being narcotic, he laughed again.


IMHO, this isn't enough to refute the current thinking in SCUBA certification courses, but the OP didn't make it up....unless I was speaking to the OP

Well, I am starting to lose interest in this thread as well, time to go golfing.

Did you discuss with him any of his works with NOAA on micro-bubble research with Nitrox? Did you ask him his creditability as part of the first 100 original Nitrox instructor in the USA and his hyperbaric medicine credentials? I know he teaches hyperbaric technology here in Florida. He also builds chambers and subs. Pretty impressive resume if you ask me. I'm going to look for another source that's either supportive or non-supportive. I do apologize, as I was under the impression that he was a MD. My bad on that one. Thank you for validating my story.

 

[TSandM]

debajo de agua, the fact is that the contribution of oxygen to narcosis is somewhat controversial, but based on the Meyer-Overton approach, where lipid solubility correlates with narcotic potential (which works very well for any non-metabolized gas), oxygen ought to be fairly narcotic. Oxygen is unique, though, in that very little of it is dissolved in plasma. The majority is carried on hemoglobin, and some of it is metabolized. Both of these differences have the possibility of affecting the contribution of oxygen to total gas narcosis. As narcosis within commonly dived pressures is a subtle phenomenon, it is quite difficult to measure changes, especially within the small variations in N2 that are achieved with normally utilized Nitrox mixes. (Whereas people can and do dive 10/70 for technical dives, nobody can reduce the N2 to 20% of the mix with oxygen, and then dive to any depth where narcosis from either gas would be noticeable.)

Narcosis is also interesting, because it's clearly more marked (on any gas) when the diver is underwater, than it is in hyperbaric chambers. This may have to do with the tendency of some divers to retain CO2 underwater, and CO2 is EXTREMELY narcotic. CO2 retention also worsens with depth, which is where inert gas narcosis is more noticeable.

Some technical training considers only the nitrogen in the mix as narcotic, when calculating equivalent narcotic depth. Some considers oxygen AND nitrogen. Those of us who prefer to be conservative utilize the latter approach.

I believe your contact is overly self-assured in pronouncing oxygen non-narcotic; and I think anybody who states without qualification that it IS as narcotic as nitrogen is overly sure. As in so many things regarding narcosis, it simply isn't that clear.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

... and FWIW, TSandM is an MD ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Hetland]

I will add something he told me. He said he worked with NOAA on micro-bubble research and the use of Nitrox. He stated that using Doppler, they found micro-bubbles on divers using Air but found none on divers using Nitrox.

Poppycock. You most likely have microbubbles in your blood at this very instant, even if you've never taken a single breath of compressed gas while underwater. If I do two identical no-decompression dives (one on air, one on nitrox, and using appropriate tables for each dive) and don't do a safety stop, I'll have certainly have micro-bubbles present in both dives.

Did you discuss with him any of his works with NOAA on micro-bubble research with Nitrox? Did you ask him his creditability as part of the first 100 original Nitrox instructor in the USA and his hyperbaric medicine credentials? I know he teaches hyperbaric technology here in Florida. He also builds chambers and subs. Pretty impressive resume if you ask me. I'm going to look for another source that's either supportive or non-supportive. I do apologize, as I was under the impression that he was a MD. My bad on that one. Thank you for validating my story.

A machinist, an engineer, and computer programmer can all build a space shuttle, but that doesn't qualify any of them to fly it.

You should probably worry less about O2 narcosis and more about CO2 narcosis. They probably didn't teach you much (if anything) about that in your nitrox class, but you can bet your !@# it will eat your lunch.