A somewhat sad conversation last night

[TSandM]

John, I read your two descriptions, and neither fits all of the training I've taken, whether it was GUE or another agency.

GUE does not require you to take the class over again if you can't meet the standard; many folks get a provisional pass, and are sent off to work on certain specific deficiencies until they can be reevaluated and passed. You take the class over only if you FAIL, which requires a certain degree of effort in most cases Or if you are unable to convert your provisional within the six month allowed period, which is what happened to me with C2, because I was unable to meet the criteria for passing due to the logistics involved.

GUE's standards for passing (and the standards for the numerical assignment for each required skill) are published, and I believe part of the reason for that is to try to reduce the inter-instructor variability in what is viewed as a passing performance. The standards ARE high, and honestly, I like that, even though I struggle with them. Having now done a fair bit of cave diving and a little technical diving, I think the standards across the board ought to be higher than they are (not in GUE, but elsewhere). That said, I don't think very many GUE instructors expect you to be as good at the end of a class as you will be a few months later -- but some do. That's why I did say that, even in GUE, one needs to pick one's instructor carefully.

 

[BluewaterSail]

I think there is also a difference in agency philosophy that comes into play. I will describe that difference in somewhat exaggerated terms (so don't nitpick!) to underline the difference.

Philosophy One: Train the student to a degree approaching expert status in a long and expensive class, withholding all certification until the student displays that high degree of skill. If the student fails to demonstrate that level of skill at the end of the class, then the student must take the class over again.

Philosophy Two: Train the student to the level of being a safe and effective, but not expert diver, leaving it up to the student to achieve that greater level of expertise during subsequent experience. If the diver does not achieve the required level at the end of the class, the student can work with the instructor to complete the deficient skills.

I have a feeling that #1 was meant to be GUE and #2 was meant to be everyone else. If so, I disagree.

First, all required skills in a GUE course are graded from 1-5, with 3 being a passing grade in most cases, 4 in some others. Perfection is not expected for passing, but of course what constitutes perfection is relative. Clearly, GUE has a different perception of what constitutes the levels of acceptable through perfection than many of the other agencies.

Secondly, as Lynn just stated, most students who don't pass a GUE course get a "Provisional pass" which lists the skills on which they need to improve. While it is the responsibility of the original instructor to grant the eventual pass, generally he/she will allow any GUE instructor to do a check-out dive with the student to verify the skills.

I took Fundies twice for 2 reasons:
1) I wanted to in order to get the most out of it, since I was really unprepared and distracted the first time around, and also it was not my type of teaching style
2) more than 6 months had passed before I got around to it, so my provisional expired.

 

[boulderjohn]

My reference was not necessarily to fundies in particular but to overall agency concepts, and no it was not GUE against the world. The main idea was in the degree to which one is expected to approach perfection before a certification is issued, which has a dramatic impact on the cost of a certification course/program.

My own DIR training came through UTD. I have no GUE training. I left UTD for a different agency because of this reason, although at the trimix level. While certified at what would roughly be the normoxic level for most agencies, I realized that in order to achieve would would be the advanced trimix level (one class) with most agencies, I would have to complete three classes and so many experience dives outside of class that it would take me years to complete that training. Not only that, I would have to have a training partner at the same level throughout, and I had no one ether at that level or gaining experience at the same rate as I. My honest assessment was that it would take me at least 7 years and many, many thousands of dollars to get a certification level that I could achieve in a fraction of that time and through another agency, once that seems to be turning out divers who are plenty safe enough without that superlative level of instruction. At my age it was a choice between 1) never reaching that level of training and never doing the dives I wanted to do and 2) getting the certification relatively quickly and enjoying those dives as long as I am capable of doing them.

It was an easy choice.

Programs that cost thousands of dollars will keep students away, and agencies have to decide how important it is to require that much.

 

[TSandM]

John, you've posted these comments before. I'm going to be blunt . . . you were working with an agency that thinks that divers need a certain degree of experience at one level before moving on to the next, and you made a personal decision that you disagreed with that determination because it was inconvenient and expensive for you to meet it. You certainly have that right, but I think using that to imply the agency you were working with is WRONG in its decision is a little self-serving.

I didn't pass Cave 2. I had a set of "homework" I was asked to do to convert that provisional to a pass. That homework would have involved at least two trips to Florida from Seattle, and that was something I simply could not get done in the six month period allowed for it (I already had two big trips scheduled during that time, which could not be canceled or changed). Instead, I did NACD Full Cave in Mexico when I was there three months later. It was FAR cheaper than redoing Cave 2, and had the benefit of being done in MX while I was there anyway, for a trip that had been planned for over six months. I won't dance around the fact that price was a big part of the decision, and I'll openly admit that I wanted the certification. Dennis DID make me take the class, and he specifically tested the things I told him I had done poorly in Florida. The class was easier than my C2 for a lot of reasons -- it was in MX, it wasn't in flow, it was just me and Dennis, or one other "classmate" who was always a fully certified and very competent cave diver. I was rested and warm and dry. The class didn't involve stages, either. I passed it without any difficulty at all. And of course, being me, that has left me with a nagging wonder about whether it was hard enough

I made a bunch of decisions for my own training and my own budget. I do not criticize GUE for how they do their classes or their requirements. I do sometimes raise the question of whether one class can be worth three times what another costs . . . but I think GUE classes, in general, are more extensive, more thorough, and more demanding than many classes taught through other agencies, and are probably worth more money. Obviously, a lot of people agree with that, because the GUE technical and cave instructors are as busy as they want to be.

My guess is that your UTD instructor would say that, if you couldn't meet the experience dive requirements, you simply aren't doing enough technical diving to be safe at the full Trimix level of dive. You disagree with him, but that doesn't make him necessarily wrong (or right). The agency has made a decision, and I think it's one that's pretty easy to argue in favor of.

 

[boulderjohn]

John, you've posted these comments before. I'm going to be blunt . . . you were working with an agency that thinks that divers need a certain degree of experience at one level before moving on to the next, and you made a personal decision that you disagreed with that determination because it was inconvenient and expensive for you to meet it. You certainly have that right, but I think using that to imply the agency you were working with is WRONG in its decision is a little self-serving....
My guess is that your UTD instructor would say that, if you couldn't meet the experience dive requirements, you simply aren't doing enough technical diving to be safe at the full Trimix level of dive. You disagree with him, but that doesn't make him necessarily wrong (or right). The agency has made a decision, and I think it's one that's pretty easy to argue in favor of.

I'm not sure how you got that out of what I wrote.

I said there are two philosophies. I did not say one was wrong and the other right. I said there were two philosophies.

In my case one of them was better for me. Other people will find the other better for them.

I also suggested that if one has a specific philosophy such as I described, you should not be surprised if some people make another choice, as I did.

I am frankly baffled by your response.

 

[mdb]

This whole thread has been/is a "Sad Conversation".

 

[JamesK]

This whole thread has been/is a "Sad Conversation".

And made just that much better by your witty and intelligent response.

 

[DaleC]

I read this and said what? (btw, this is not a personal critique, just a financial consideration) :

"I took Fundies twice for 2 reasons:
1) I wanted to in order to get the most out of it, since I was really unprepared and distracted the first time around, and also it was not my type of teaching style
2) more than 6 months had passed before I got around to it, so my provisional expired."

This within 50-99 dives on top of whatever original OW training one may have had. In my region fundies would be between $1k-$2k so that's 2-4k worth of training within 100 dives and we're not even technical yet. I know for some financial considerations are not a factor but...

People post this kind of thing about GUE/UTD and no one bats an eye but someone needs to be aware of the optics for the majority of people struggling to enjoy a pastime on a limited budget.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I paid way more than that for my cave training (NSS-CDS) even though I manage to make it to cave country maybe once a year ... which means I'll never really get good at it, even though I think the training was way worth the money.

Training is like anything else ... you tend to get what you pay for ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[JamesK]

I paid way more than that for my cave training (NSS-CDS) even though I manage to make it to cave country maybe once a year ... which means I'll never really get good at it, even though I think the training was way worth the money.

Training is like anything else ... you tend to get what you pay for ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Cave training was not cheap! Luckily I was able to go twice a month, so IMO it paid off leaps and bounds. Well, until I joined the Army, and had to take a diving break all together. However, do you feel cave training improved your diving overall? If so, it was more then worth it.

Let me know if and when you can get back to the caves. I would love to dive with you if I am back in the states.