NACD Intro - 58cf Limit - Why?

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James, I think he is saying he would find an instructor to take him through via private classes. Or, at least, I took it that way.

As for reading all the books . . . that's what the student is supposed to do before class, right? Studying in prep for class?

I don't see anything in what he wrote that indicates he is unaware of the gaps in his knowledge or that he thinks he has nothing to learn.

I see someone who is significantly more open minded, and who would avail himself of the best sources he can find, regardless of where he finds them. That isn't necessarily in a pre-programmed class, or with an instructor who is very rigid or one-dimensional in their approach.

IMO the ego comes through much more strongly from other posters here.

Well, if I am reading him wrong, I apologize. It came off to me exactly the way I posted, and I still see it that way.

Jax, reading all the books in the world is fine, however it does not take the place of a class with a competent instructor.

Gcarter, I don't see an open minded attiutude, I see arrogance. I hope I am wrong.

---------- Post added at 10:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 PM ----------

OK, let's try it out front.

Imagine Dirk Pitt, a diver who has:

  • been diving for more than 50 years.
  • has dove every environment that there is to dive on earth, with the exception of long cave penetrations, including icebergs, deep wrecks, even hot springs in a cold water suit.
  • has been under the Arctic and Antarctic ice.
  • has saturated in underwater habitats.
  • has been teaching diving scientists and others for more than 40 years.
  • was a pioneer in introducing the science community first to computers and NITROX and then to mixed gas and rebreathers, long before the public, or even the cave community, saw any of them.

Then let's stipulate that:
  • he has shown himself to be virtually impossible to panic.
  • has plus or minus three inch buoyancy control.
  • has never left a silt trail anywhere in his life.
  • can cut tables for virtually any mix on the fly in his head, etc.

What is this person going to learn from in a cave diving course that he would not better learn from reading and a few good check-dives with, say Edd or Bozanic, or someother serious expert?

How far back from Dirk Pitt do we have to move him before said cave diving course has real utility?


What can he learn? He can learn how to cave dive.
 
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Thal, pfcaj did make his case in post #73, he'd rather less people get into cave diving. High diver traffic f's up caves.

Now why would this person make this statement when they teach cave diving, Ah I know Competition. This will never change, lets see the newest cave orgs. DIR, GUE, UTD. all came from the original cave divers that started the first class ever.

I was still a teenager and my first cave like dive was in a mine near Isle royale, spent three months straight diving these mines and the weekend taking diver to the wrecks Off the Island to pay for gas food and beer and what not. Then I brought many divers there and at that point are area had fresh water caves (mines) to dive. Then when I went to actual caves around the world it was a piece of cake.

Its all diving submerged and you run into different applications, be it wreck, salvage, cave, or my favorite right now is wicked ass current deep and covering miles.

The guy I currently been diving with is an old caver, we had to great dives today.

Cave & Altitude Diving (in Czech) - JanKocian's Photos


You guys are actually new cave divers as I still feel when I dive with this diver.
 
Jax, reading all the books in the world is fine, however it does not take the place of a class with a competent instructor.

I agree, James, but wouldn't we be wasting both the instructors' and our own time if we didn't study thoroughly?
 
I agree, James, but wouldn't we be wasting both the instructors' and our own time if we didn't study thoroughly?

Jax, I never once said anything about not studying. In fact I encourage reading everything you can before you take a class. I still read everything I can get my grubby little hands on. However, reading is not like staying at a Holiday Inn Express. Somethings you just need a hands on approach. Cave diving is one of them. Along with wreck diving, rebreather, ice diving, etc. I don't do any of those but I would take a class if I wanted to do them. Some things you can learn from trail and error, caves are not one of them.
 
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The reason I say this is look at how many cave divers die who carry a whole lot of CF, yes even over the weekend, I would beg to say it might be safer to cave dive with a single tank as you can only go so far.


You have already proven yourself to be dangerous with statements like this. Now you want to name drop diving with another diver as if that makes you somehow better. I see people do this in the forums and it's usually all BS. I call BS on all of your statements.
 
Jax, I never once said anything about not studying. In fact I encourage reading everything you can before you take a class. I still read everything I can get my grubby little hands on. However, reading is not like staying at a Holiday Inn Express. Somethings you just need a hands on approach. Cave diving is one of them. Along with wreck diving, rebreather, ice diving, etc. I don't do any of those but I would take a class if I wanted to do them. Some things you can learn from trail and error, caves are not one of them.

We agree one hundred percent!!! I research, I ask questions, I study, I ask questions, I get another book, I ask questions . . . . Then take the plunge!
 
Ah and you are what, just a diver, big deal.

Hey I'm just diving with the best in the world, thought that is what this thread is all about, the best instruction.

Are you upset cause you will never ever be a diver like this diver, and neither will I, of course I can except that, and you cannot.
 
That's not particularly relevant, the strength of an argument does not rest of an appeal to authority, but rather on it's quality.
Yes, if I were needing to cave dive I would not be looking for a cave class, I'd be doing a lot of reading and looking for a good series of check-rides, just as a champion pylon racer who'd been flying a Bearcat would not be looking to retake his private license to transition to a Sea Fury. But you don't seem to recognize that there are other competent pilots out there, most of whom are your equal and some of whom are your better.
No, how it happened is obvious to even the least experienced observer, an instructor who was unfamiliar with the training location took two students out anyway and almost killed them as a result.
Did I say otherwise, or is it just that you like to fight? My only point is that a competent instructor could (not should, could) conduct an intro class with his or her students using a single tank with two regs. That's all.
Wow, "Nickel rocketry" and "short cuts," modern replacements for "farm animal stupid," ad-hockery" and "stroke"? Some things never seem to change.

Let's face it, cave diving with anything but the best, most reliable and most dependable gear (often the most expensive) can always be categorized as "Nickel rocketry" and "short cuts," do you happen to own a custom, low cross-section, graphite fiber, hard suit? No? Why what kind of "Nickel rocketry" and "short cuts" are you engaged in? You see, we all know what we all are, we're just arguing about the price.
If you know what is best why are you having such a hard time making your case that you have to drag in strawmen that were never proposed and accidents that have nothing to do with your point? Make your case ... go ahead, we're all still waiting for it.

I've got nothing else to do tonight except this. Let's play.

Before we go any farther, what words are allowed? If not nickel rocketry, how about cheap? Does that sound better? Instead of cutting corners, what would you like me to say? Please, so we can be sure to use the right terminology.

Thre JB incident is a prime time example of why you need MORE gas on a cave dive. The student's didn't know any better, and the instructor goofed (badly). If they had half the volume (single tank) they probably wouldn't have survived. Cave dives get screwy sometimes. Having more time to solve problems is one of the major benefits of a large reserve.

What exactly is the advantage of a single tank? We've long ago listed the numerous shortcomings when compared to a dual-tank system. So if there is no advantage and only disadvantages, whats the deal. They're either too expensive (nickel rocketry...errr... cheapness) or the diver doesn't want to invest time into using them (corner cutting, or your term of choice).

Lel to the hardsuit. So we're going to walk on the bottom now? Cute, but telling of what you know about cave diving. I could buy any regs I want, any suit I want, and tanks I want, etc. I buy the good stuff that's been proven through years of use. Anyone can do that without spending a million dollars. But foregoing critical gear because of stinginess is ill-advised. You've got to pay to play, and if you can't, don't. Just wait a little till you can afford it.

The accidents and incidents in cave diving often show us a lot. A class would fill you in on some of that. But you don't need one, right? Nothing to learn here. There are plenty of divers that are better than me, plenty that are equal, and I'm sure there are a few that are worse. I still respect learning, and a lot of divers who are equal, better, or worse than me respect the same thing and get proper training.

Good thing you aren't interested in cave diving. And for that, we thank you.
 
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