Switching from Jacket bcd to Backplate/Wing??

[Deep South Divers]

Regarding the wing in the video:

I have never heard of this brand. Having spent time in the Halcyon factory recently, I can tell you that their stuff is made literally on-site and beautifully... When you see them being made and welded ultrasonically, you can definitely appreciate the quality in workmanship even more. I can also tell you that their lifetime warranty is absolutely phenominal... I purchased a Pioneer wing more than ten years ago, and have replaced it - free of charge, and at one time actually receiving an upgrade to the Eclipse - at least four times. While this sounds like a terrible review on Halcyon quality, nothing could be further from the truth... For me, that's every 750 or 1000 dives. In all fairness, things DO wear out, after all. Most people will never approach that many dives in their lifetime.

Having said that, I can tell you that a 30 pound Eclipse wing costs more alone that you have spent for your entire BP/wing package. Like I said, I think it's worth it, but... That wing there looks like a clone and I'd be very interested in seeing it's level of durability over time and how it compares to a Halcyon.

...So +1 on the wing. Let's see how durable it is and if it can compare.

Regarding the size of the wing... Your dive shop has steered you right... Most singles wings are nicely tucked yet offering a good amount of lift around 30 pounds. A 40-pound wing is better if you're diving a drysuit and/or with larger steel tanks. More on that later... You did great with a 28-pounder. +1 on the wing size.

The STA looks like a standard STA. I'm a big fan of Oxycheq's "Scott Koplin" designed STA that is hourglass-shaped, but I honestly can't say that it has any advantage over this standard Hollis/Halcyon/Dive Rite/OMS design... I just like the look of it better. Either way, you did well on this purchase too. +1.

The stainless steel cam bands that hold a single tank to the STA are FANTASTIC. There's only three cam bands that allow the cam band to completely come apart when you release them, giving your rig the advantage of being able to change your tank with the rig laying down on it's face. This is a huge advantage on a rocking boat offshore... Simply lay our rig down, pop the two releases and unscrew the first stage and swap. It's much easier than trying to do this with the tank standing up, and does not require that you remove your regs from the rig... So the process is waaaaaay simpler, safer, and easier. People on the boat diving with you will be jealous.

For what it's worth, there's only three cam bands on the market that do this... Scubapro cam bands, these generic cam bands (both of which are almost identical designs) and Highland cam bands, which are a completely different design. My personal favorites are the generic ones that you have there, but I'm not a fan of the white-striped cam straps, so for me, I use only the Scubapro cam bands, modified to work like the generics. Any one of the three enable you to change a tank like this, and you have one of them on your new rig, so a big +1 on a subject not normally even noticed by gear hounds.

Regarding the backplate, I feel that you'll quickly move from an aluminum plate into a stainless one. The difference is that a stainless plate is 6 lbs negative, whereas the aluminum one is less than 1 pound negative. There's a lot of factors that go into weighting, obviously, but the real question is... "How much weight do you use as a minimum?" If you're the kind of diver that dives in a T-shirt and bathing suit in a pool, then an aluminum may be for you. If you own your own steel tanks and find yourself overweighted when using them, then moving to an aluminum plate may be the ticket... But if you're using the every day aluminum 80 tank and/or find yourself diving in a wetsuit even in warm water (which I always recommend - they keep the scrapes, bruises, bumps and stings off even if you don't need them for warmth), then you're better off using a standard steel plate. Steel plates take 6 lbs off of your waist and place it over your lungs, which dramatically improves trim characteristics while getting lead off of your waist. The only reason you wouldn't want this is if you were overweighted at six pounds (like you actually needed LESS than that), or if you were using heavy (and less common) steel tanks that were already very heavy. So... A -1 for your choice of backplate materials unless you're a "bathingsuit only" and "warmwater only" kind of diver who would not benefit from having 6 lbs taken off of their waist and placed over their lungs.

Harness: Yes, I know that those harnesses are being sold as "deluxe," and that they are considered an upgrade. However, it has been my experience with regards to harnesses that "less is more." Like a running shoe vs. a work boot, less feels better and is more streamlined and allows for easy customization, a simpler setup, quick and inexpensive replacement, and an overall advantage over the "deluxe" harnesses. Yes, I know, the dive shops all say that "deluxe" harnesses are better because they have padding and chest straps (that get in the way and don't actually have any advantage) and plastic doofangies and quick releases (in case you want to quickly separate you from your life support system?), but in my experience, they aren't. Padding only gets in the way at depth, and on the surface, a neoprene wetsuit is much better padding than any fluffy wet junk on the rig itself... The wetsuit is like "gel" padding. Plastic doofangies and quick releases only age and break (like I mentioned before), and chest straps are annoyingly in the way and usually get cut off by divers anyway. Mostly, however, "deluxe" harnesses do not allow for infinite adjustment of D-ring attachment points, which is to say that you'll quickly become annoyed that you can't place the D-rings exactly where you want them... You'll be kinds stuck with where the seamstress chose for them to be... Which may be adequate, and may not. So... A big -1 for the "deluxe" version of the harness.

Crotch strap: The whole world is using a 2" crotch strap with both a P-ring ("scootering" ring) and a butt ring (similar, but on the back of the crotch strap), yet I repeatedly see new companies coming out that use either 1" wide webbing or 1.5" wide webbing. I don't know why the manufacturers keep doing this... A soft 2" crotch strap works great, even if you're clipping into a scooter and it's pulling you around by the crotch strap. 1" crotch straps give wedgies if you try this, and 1.5" cortch straps are predictably somewhere in-between. The crotch strap on this system is a 1.5" strap. I don't know why they'd do this, but I see it regularly, and no, 1.5" webbing is NOT cheaper than 2" webbing. My recommendation is to change it out when you get the system so that you don't wedgie, especially if you're wearing a bathing suit only. Yes, that's a visual. Uaaaahhhhh... Next topic... -1.

Now... Here's the cool part of a BP/wing: Get what you've ordered and try it out. If you choose to change to a steel plate or a simple (or "Hogarthian") harness system, or a 2" crotch strap, then you can... Simply order the part and take the old one off and put the new one on. It's that simple. Or don't. It's up to you... No engineering degree necessary. If you can tie your shoelaces and adjust the buckle on a baseball cap, you can replace/change/adjust anything on a BP/wing that you want.

Hell, you could even add neon pink webbing and plastic quick releases if you wanted to... Not that I'd recommend that, of course... Please allow me to introduce you to the unofficial joking concept of "Rule 6."

 

[ermaclob]

Deep South Divers,

i just thought that lighter would be better, i dive warm water. and normally dive in a non-buoyant thick dive skin. and only use a 3mm shorty in really cold weather. i thought the aluminum would be the way to go. And if i wanted to do something like a monkey diving rig i didnt want 6 pounds on my back with my steel 40 on my side.

but like you said, if dont like it i can just change it.

i agree i may have been a little impulsive when getting that harness, it just seemed like what i had in mind or a "good harness" not to much but not to little. that -1 you gave me is defeatly deserved.

as for the crotch strap.... never every used one before... didnt even know people used them till like a week ago ... i dont think it matters if its .5" to small.

 

[Deep South Divers]

Lighter is definitely better, and less is definitely more.

Unfortunately, when you're diving, you'll want to "tune" your weighting to neutral - whether that's "lighter" or not... Which is something that you'd do whether you were wearing a common BC or a BP/wing of aluminum or steel or plastic or whatever. Usually, this means that you'll add lead weights on your rig - whatever you're using - until you have enough. With your dive skin, you'll need less lead than if you are wearing a shorty, and you'll need more lead if you wear a 3mm... Still more in a 5 and still more in a 7, in order to be neutral.

Optionally, instead of adding lead to your rig for differing weighting needs, you could simply get heavier (in the water) gear... Trade the aluminum plate for a steel one and it's -5 pounds. Trade aluminum tanks for steel and it's -6 pounds. Trade to stainless D-rings and it's -1 pound. Tune your system and you can get rid of the lead, which is bulky, heavy out of the water, expensive, and generally a pain in the neck. The trick is, not to go "over" what you need in terms of weighting, and in some cases where the numbers get large, you'll want to be able to ditch some of the weight. More on that another time - really, with regards to the plate, you didn't do badly... I just think you'll end up liking the reduction of lead and the better trim by having the six pounds of plate over your lungs, where you need it most to be trimmed correctly in the water.

In short, I would have recommended to you the steel plate over the aluminum, but get what you ordered and let's see what the real numbers are and take it from there.

BTW, the "-1s" and "+1s" weren't a grade for YOU... So please don't take it personally. They were just an "agree" or "disagree" comment, that's all.

Regarding the crotch strap, I agree that there's not a whole lot of difference, especially if you're not scootering and you've got it adjusted right. New 2" ones are like $35, so it's not really a big deal if you ever do decide to switch.

Having said all of this, welcome to the backplate and wing crowd. My guess is that over the next dozen dives or so, you'll do just like we did and play and adjust and come up with all of your own cool ideas and modifications. For some reason or another, we love customizing these things...

 

[DM_cappie]

hmmm... I’ve never heard of the company who makes that wing.....however I think you’re going to love the solo harness. as far as the d-rings are concerned their all on 3 bar sliders so you can play with how many and their placement. in all its probably the closest to a hog rig as HOLLIS makes.

with all that said im glad to see SeaJay already beat me here, so instead of echoing all he's already said im just going to tell ya congrats and welcome to the BP+W family....your secret decoder ring should be coming soon...lol

 

[TXreefer]

I too just made the switch. Picked up a used DR BP&W with a SS plate. I'm hoping I can tropical dive with no added weights! I don't wear a suit.

 

[ermaclob]

Thank for the help everyone. I over thought it and was able to get the store to switch the back plate to a hog ss.

Unfortunatly.... They were out of the tank clamps so they had to order them..... Ill probably get it in 14 days as long as I get it before spring break, ill be happy.

 

[Splitlip]

I also started diving with a plastic backpack, one piece harness and no bc. Eventually began using a snorkel vest as a bc, then a sea quest horse collar and after that the original Scubapro stab.

Fast forward 25 years or so and a few bc's later, I found myself leg heavy and having trim issues. The manager of the local Force-E loaned me his SS plate and wing with one piece harness. Trim immediately improved and I loved the tiny package and the lack of bulk.

I am not hyping them or saying they are the best for everybody, but I love the bpw. Knife on waist strap, light or lights stored tightly on my shoulder straps, large smb hidden securely between my plate and back. Easy slinging of my pony. I clip my reel off to the lower right corner of my plate.

My aluminum plate and wing weigh less than my daughter's jacket btw.

 

[Deep South Divers]

Ha! "Decoder ring!" That's funny... There really is a "DIR Handshake" though.

Ya did yourself a lot of good, ermaclob... And both you and TXReefer should be pretty spot-on diving bare or in a skin and needing no weight at all. I couldn't agree more with Splitlip - the -6 pounds of a stainless plate over your lungs - naturally the most buoyant part of your body - usually does a really fine job of trimming you out for a very balanced, horizontal position.

I know that in freshwater and with no weight at all, a stainless plate alone is exactly what I need to be weighted perfectly. In saltwater, I have to add three pounds to each side, which I do right on the webbing. Some people do this instead with a weight belt or with pockets threaded on the rig.

The same pair of three-pounders work nicely for me in freshwater in a 5 mil or trilam drysuit. In saltwater in a 5mil, I have to move to a pair of five-pounders.

I try to avoid 7 mil suits, but for reference, I take two pairs of four-pounders (eight pounds each side) in saltwater. I avoid "farmer john" suits like the plague, so all of the thicknesses I am giving you are one-piece suits, and with a single aluminum 80 (either Luxfer or Catalina), 5 mil booties (when diving wet), and almost always with a 5 mil hood. My rig is a Scott Koplin (Oxycheq) stainless plate (medium - "normal" size) and a Koplin (Oxycheq) "hourglass" STA. All of my wings are Halcyon wings, but for the above I am usually in a 30-pound Eclipse. I have no plastic on my rig at all - everything's stainless, to include the Scubapro cam band buckles.

For what it's worth, I am also diving with Scubapro Jet fins, which are comparably heavy to most fins. The weight of these works great for trim - if I straightem my knees while in a horizontal position, I tilt up... Bend my knees so that my heels touch my butt and I tilt down - control of trim without finning! I love that.

Your results should be very similar, plus or minus for your own body's natural buoyancy and maybe for the fins if you dive plastic.

You're really going to like the Hogarthian harness - exceedingly simple, it lets you put anything you want anywhere you want - even padding on the shoulders if you decide you want that because you're not in a wetsuit. There's also a back pad if you want that - but it covers that very pretty backplate... I just find it's easier to wear a 3-mil, even in 90* water, and be safe from jellyfish, barnacles, fire coral, oysters, and rusty shipwreck parts while providing padding for the plate. I find myself diving longer when I wear exposure protection, too - even in the warmest of waters, you still get cold after an hour or two. The suit keeps that away longer.

Besides, chicks dig 'em. And I dig chicks in wetsuits, too.

Again, congratulations!

 

[Zesty]

OK - this thread has me so pumped up! I have been diving for about a year with a ScubaPro Knighthawk - but began using a pony in the fall and was having a heck of a time clipping in (and therefore potentially removing) with my drysuit gloves on. I have now been convinced by my BP/W diving buddy to "come to the dark side" so am in the midst of purchasing two DR rigs - one AL for all that warm water diving and a SS for the wonderful Great Lakes and all these great quarries we have in the Mid West! I was on the fence about the harness style, but ended up with a DR Quick Release (one buckle on the L shoulder) as I have a history of issues with that shoulder (aint getting old grand! :depressed. Am going with the Highland SS releases as I have been using the ScubaPro version and LOVE the ease they offer! Will be "graduating" to the DUI weight belt (right now, I use 24# lead with my Flx 50/50 and steel 100) so it will be nice to get down to 18 lbs of lead not attached to the rig as I don / doff!

 

[Deep South Divers]

The Knighthawk is a great BC. I'm also a fan of the Scubapro Classic Plus and the SeaQuest Balance and Raider.

That said, a backplate and wing is superior in every way to any of these BCs. It's more streamlined, more rugged, more customizable, and more simple. Backplates and wings can also handle doubles, stages, and even rebreathers, which none of the above is equipped for.

The Highland cam bands are really nice. I haven't yet decided if I like them better or their similar-functioning Scubapro or Deep Outdoors (which are actually a generic rebadged) cam band... The point is that the cam band comes completely apart. This idea is unique in the industry and a huge advantage on a rocking boat or to "quick change" tanks between dives.

Let us know how the Dive Rite harness works out for you. I have a feeling that you'll find what many of us have found... That because of the fact that the shoulder straps are close together at the top and further apart at the bottom of the plate, the easiest way to get out of a bp/wing is to lift the rig off your shoulders before trying to don or doff. Since the shoulder straps - unlike most BCs - are not parallel (and are designed to be much more loose than most BCs), quick releases become unnecessary. Which is great - one less thing to go wrong.

Alternatively, if you have a medical condition that prevents normal doffing or donning, then... Well, just let us know how it works out for you. If you HAVE to use one, a stainless weight belt buckle like Halcyon, Scubapro, and Dive Rite make is a safer, more secure option that won't become brittle in the sun or break when someone steps on it on the boat. This method works with any harness, Hogarthian, DIR, Deluxe, or whatever.

For what it's worth, I would recommend that you try the stainless plate first and see how it balances you out. Most people prefer them over the aluminum ones because they place 6 lbs of weight right over your lungs, where it makes your body nicely trimmed right from the outset. The only time I've ever seen someone prefer the aluminum plate is when they are looking to LOSE six pounds, like if they're using double steel 104s or double 95's - both very heavy tanks and already placing a lot of weight over your lungs.

I've also seen people using aluminum plates for travel, because it saves them 5 pounds in the luggage. If they're carrying on, that's a big deal. Of course, once they get to their destination, they have to find lead weights to use, and then all of their weight is on their waist and they tend to dive more vertical than horizontal because their trim is off. If you don't already know what this does, it increases your workload, reduces the amount of time you get out of a tank, screws up your buoyancy, silts up the bottom, makes you a slave to the current, and reduces your ability to hold a constant depth... Which is really bad for you physiologically. At the end of the day you're feeling a lot more tired because you worked so hard, had shorter, more intense dives, and made it more difficult for your body to offgas properly. In other words, you "loaded" and then made it more difficult for your body to "unload." Diving this way is also a lot less fun.

The problem isn't so pronounced if your weighting requirements are very little - like less than ten pounds (including the plate). In other words, the issue isn't huge if you're diving in a bathing suit in 90* water... But as a general rule, aluminum plates usually go with LP steel tanks (the "old" kind - not the HP steels). If that's not you, then I would recommend steering clear of them unless you find that you're overweighted.

...Which, if you're dreaming about using 18 pounds of lead, you certainly will not be.